I prefer to avoid GMs who arbitrarily kill players to show how badass they are. Yes, titans are powerful, yes, they should kill everything. but I dislike the mindset of

"they'd best be running away from it lest I just decide to inflict enough damage to kill them. "Oh, you can absorb 50 damage and have 20 wounds? You take 80." "

Yes, you are the GM, we already know you control everything, you don't need to hit us in the faces with your GMpeen.

Also, I take it you all would disallow using that power on a conveyor belt? How about in a starship? No matter where you are, you are moving, hurtling through space at hundreds of miles per hour.

well the only reason I would disallow the stacking bonuses is simply because it is impossible to cast one and maintain the other.... so the argument really does not need to occur. Even if you did allow the two spells to be cast together, force dome does not add armour against melee so you would simply engage the Librarian in close combat with no armour penetration.

Fenrisnorth said:

First of, falling into a crater while the world around you explodes might break a concentration, yep. Secondly, if the rules do not accurately reflect the universe as envisioned by me the GM, I change the rules. If the RAW makes it possible that your psyker (not yours personally) can survive multiple titan weapon attacks, then I take the liberty to house rule that even at psy rating 10 with pushed force barrier and storm shield and bla bla bla a volcano cannon shot will obliterate said psyker on first hit, no dices rolled except the to-hit roll perhaps.

Not a realistic example, I know, it's just to make a point: I am not going to rulify everything. Plot (or vision of setting) trumps mechanics.

Alex

Yes, it MIGHT break concentration, but the argument was a "OH YOU MOVED HAHAHAHAHAHAHA" scenario, not a breaking of concentration. I am not saying that PCs should be able to do the hustle in the blast of a Volcano Cannon. But it is ***holery to just say "you died because I'm the GM and I want to show you you aren't so hot"

Fenrisnorth said:

Of course one could otoh consider it "***holery" by a player to try to accumulate as much AP as possible to begin with. To which one possible solution is "Rocks fall, everyone dies". Not the best solution, which would be talking to the player about it and simply not allowing this kind of stacking of APs.

The question you posed earlier was whether this power can be used to escape obliteration through ordnance. And the correct answer to that is: only if the GM allows it.

And from my interpretation of the setting it is "only if the GM is dumb enough to allow it" because according to that interpretation it would not be possible unless the GM would allow the interpretation to be undermined by a player cleverly exploiting a divergence between said interpretation and RAW.

In the light of that, I fail to see where the problem is. According to RAW a DA Librarian may shrug off shots by a Turbo Laser. According to my interpretation of the universe he may not shrug off attacks by a Titan.

Every GM has to pick their own interpretation even if it's only sth as simple as "I stick to RAW".

Alex

what is otoh? if I may ask.

I suppose my question should have been, "What are the biggest wepons that are stated out in official supplements?" I didn't mean weapons which were "340d10+Theplayersdie Tearing Volatile Felling(100)" that GMs had made up stats for. I don't think it is unreasonable to give up most offensive actions for major defense, especially one with such a big downside (Doesn't really work in melee).

By the way, what AP stacking would you disallow? The storm shield? MC armor? TB to reduce damage? or do you have a beef with that psychic power? GW Lore has several examples of people avoiding certain death. from heroic last stands to sheer bloodyminded too stubborn to diedness.

Fenrisnorth said:

Otoh is 'on the other hand'.

I wouldn't disallow any of it. I do have concerns whether the Force Barrier scales well at high ranks. FFG obviously likes to keep it simple (PR times some non-fraction multiplier). That makes sense in order to avoid shying some gamers away. However simple mechanics often have scaling issues. In such cases it's often better to err on the side of caution and choose a lower multiplier. But my thoughts on this aren't settled; right now I am merely concerned.

As to 'GW Lore has several examples of people avoiding certain death. from heroic last stands to sheer bloodyminded too stubborn to diedness': that is what demeanours and fate points are made for.

Alex

I've taken Force Barrier for my DA librarian purely to get some survivability (and the ability to, with stoic defence, get some "you shall not pass"-kind of moments), which I think will be a life-saver, considering how one lucky attack from a horde of hormagaunt almost took all of the wounds on our tac marine, and another (unlucky) librarian more or less almost got killed during our second mission. Sure, the AP bonus can get huge, but then you kinda need to push, which carries its own risks, and not moving hurts in close quarters combat (being a librarian who excell at melee, and not having the option to charge or use swift attack either).

Fenrisnorth said:

So I'll admit my tone was a wee bit confrontational, but I guess I hate the tank concept so much I often fail to make logical and polite arguments to counter the ideas presented.

First, I'm not throwing titans against my players unless it is a plot point. In which case, I agree with Alex here, and plot trumps rules, and if you stand there, I'm going to kill your character. You might make a dramatic last stand, or get a cool bonus on your next guy, but you're smushed. Letting a character survive a shot to the face from a titan, IMHO, is dumb. Letting your character get hit with an orbital cannon and live (if it's not part of the story) is dumb. As a player you'll have plenty of warning it's a bad plan to stand in it's way, and if you make a heroic sacrifice for drama's sake, you'll be treated accordingly (and probably get cool bonuses on your next guy as per the heroic last stand rules). If you want your character to live, you spend a fate point and we come up with a in-game way for you to survive but bearly.

For Force Barrier, I would personally disallow the power when something made the concentration break- which I would include falling, or having your brain melted by another psyker. I wouldn't interpret Force Barrier as a total statue either, I'd classify it as unable to make move actions, much like overwatch- no dodging, no walking, no nothing, just standing in one place. I'd allow turns of up to about 45 degrees, the same as the fire arc for braced heavy weapons. It seems silly to require a power that takes a full round action to activate statnd still, or what's the point? The only place the power would be useful then is on a football field when you clearly see an army of lascannons taking aim at you.

But as for the concept of the combo, BrotherHostower is right, you can't bring them both up at once- or are we missing something where you can activate one of them as a half action?

As for countering the combo, if it was allowed, the thread has that covered- the enemy moves, the enemy engages in hand to hand, the enemy blows the floor our from under the psyker, an enemy psyker engages them, a vortex grenade, etc.

Charmander said:

Even if he could, I just read that psy power bonuses don't stack (page 186).

Alex

ak-73 said:

Nice find, and interesting implications. How is it we continue to miss little rules like that?

The two powers are different and don't effect the same thing so that rule is irrelevant in this case. It is still impossible to use the two powers simultaneously however.

Hadriel said:

Both would add to AP which wouldn't stack. But as has been pointed out they can't be used concurrently, right.

Alex

ak-73 said:

my bad, thought one of them reduced armour penetration values from incoming damage. That must be a deifferent power.

Hadriel said:

Force Barrier does remove AP (all of it) from incoming ranged damage when manifested at a PR5+. Though it's base ability is increasing AP. Now that you mention it, if it WERE possible to use them at the same time (which I know false) I presume that you'd get the highest AP bonus and the reduced AP. But as Force Barrier provides a greater AP bonus than Force Dome (2x versus 3), the only reason to use both (again, to be clear, you can't) would be to give yourself a personal awesome barrier and your allies a general slightly less awesome barrier.

makes sense, pretty much how most P&P systems work.