Hellebore said:

I've only seen the 1.0 mentioned in a couple of wiki articles but not in a codex, though I seem to recall someone posting a reference. As it is, DW Core indicates "The standard bolter round is .75 calibre with a..." and then goes on to say "Heavy bolters fire rounds of a much larger calibre than the standard bolt." 1.0 wouldn't be unreasonable to see as a 'much larger calibre' to me.

Hellebore said:

Well, take it or leave it, but "On worlds of lower technology, this could be home-brewed concoctions or other chemicals, but Astartes weapons use only the most concentrated and refined formulas, achieving consistently superior results." It's not 'burnier' it's comparing the difference between gasoline and ethenol. They both get the job done, but one is more efficient.

They do the same type of explanation for plasmas and bolters. The only one I don't see an 'excuse' for is the melta.

And if different patterns of weapons can produce such varied weapon damages and abilities as seen across DH, its supplements, then add in Rogue Trader and supplements, why would an astartes pattern not be able to be different too?

And Merry Christmas Hellebore (or something else if that's not your bag), I'm not harassing you I swear, it's all good nautred even if the internet clouds my intent- though I'm frankly not sure when I'll give up trying to change your mind about these things

Hellebore said:

You know, that's not a bad system, tbh, wonder why the designers decided to go with the doubling/tripling of it?

EDIT: Checked the SM codex and all they do is mention 'fist sized bolts' but they also say it's an 'enormous version of the boltgun' and to me it does make me wonder why it wouldn't be bigger ammo.

I've only seen the 1.0 mentioned in a couple of wiki articles but not in a codex, though I seem to recall someone posting a reference. As it is, DW Core indicates "The standard bolter round is .75 calibre with a..." and then goes on to say "Heavy bolters fire rounds of a much larger calibre than the standard bolt." 1.0 wouldn't be unreasonable to see as a 'much larger calibre' to me.

I think that it's a logical conclusion, but it's not actually what the background says. I much prefer it to 'fist sized bolt' though because the latter seems ridiculous.

Well, take it or leave it, but "On worlds of lower technology, this could be home-brewed concoctions or other chemicals, but Astartes weapons use only the most concentrated and refined formulas, achieving consistently superior results." It's not 'burnier' it's comparing the difference between gasoline and ethenol. They both get the job done, but one is more efficient.

They do the same type of explanation for plasmas and bolters. The only one I don't see an 'excuse' for is the melta.

And if different patterns of weapons can produce such varied weapon damages and abilities as seen across DH, its supplements, then add in Rogue Trader and supplements, why would an astartes pattern not be able to be different too?

And Merry Christmas Hellebore (or something else if that's not your bag), I'm not harassing you I swear, it's all good nautred even if the internet clouds my intent- though I'm frankly not sure when I'll give up trying to change your mind about these things

Yes, but I don't like the 'astartes get this and no one else'. Bolters are rare, so the fact that marines are equipped exclusively with bolters was supposed to be an example of their own rarity. They didn't need their own exclusive super special bolter in addition to this.

The astartes simply use best quality bolters that are designed to be fired by armoured gauntleted hands. Anyone else should be able to find and use them, subject to the difficulty of finding best quality bolters. That alone should be enough to disuade the average joe from getting one.

You know, that's not a bad system, tbh, wonder why the designers decided to go with the doubling/tripling of it ?

I don't know, perhaps they decided it was simpler? At the time I playtested Dark Heresy Unnatural Stats were so rare as to be virtually unseen so they weren't perceived as much of a problem. The reliance on this rule in later books however would have changed my playtest group's opinion.

As the unnatural abilities are mainly there to affect the bonus value it would be easy to convert across. It would also allow for advancement more cleanly into Unnatural stats - like going from an ork to an ork nob with US, rather than suddenly doubling in SB, they go up more gradually.

You could double the number of unnatural bonus to represent a % bonus to tests with that stat, to represent the advantage it grants, or any number of other ideas.

I prefer it this way, mainly because I like incremental increases over large jumps. Doubling and tripling just doesn't work for me.

Hellebore

Hellebore said:

But isn't a fist larger than 1" in diameter?

Hellebore said:

To a certain degree I agree with you. Though DH started early on saying the boltguns they presented weren't the same grade as the ones the Astartes were equipped with. It almost feels like they included botlguns in DH because, well, it was 40k and that's a requirement of any 40k game, but in the author's mind the boltguns were such an amazing weapon it would've unbalanced the rest of DH, so they included a kids version. The ones they have in DH have always, at least to me, felt underpowered anyhow- 1d10+5 pen 4 tearing is great at lower levels, but it's not so hot at higher levels. And the difference between the boltgun and the heavy bolter is really .5 damage points (seeing as average bolt rounds do 10.5, HB does 11, disregarding tearing on both) which seems underpowered for something that is supposed to fire fist sized bolts. That's pure speculation, but if the shoe fits....make assumptions.

As for best quality, best quality on ranged weapons isn't really that much. You become immune to jams, and that's it- versus the melee version that gives you bonuses to hit and damage, or the armor one that gives you weight reduction (which is super important in DH) and AP bonus.

This all may diverge from some fiction, but it's been in the RPG for a while now and other than one fluff reason (elsewhere it doesn't mention astartes patter boltguns being 2x better) to me it fits the themes and mechanics of the system they've laid out. I do agree that the 'man's reach exceeds his grasp' rule system doesn't sit 100% with me, and as such I only use the 'astartes weapons are one size category larger for normal humans' rule and scrap the 'rebellious machine spirit' rule. I even have an NPC Inquisitor in my campaign that carries an astartes pistol, he uses it as a rifle, and has a full backstory to explain why the astartes gifted him the weapon.

Hellebore said:

Again to a certain degree I agree- increments feel more natural and the x2/x3 seems to go from 'normal' to 'OMFG.' But for whatever reason they decided Unnatural was the right way to represent Marines, and for the most part, for epic level characters it has seemed to work. There is more of a gap between high level and epic level that way, but so far I've not experienced any major problems with it.

The "rebellious machine spirit" could simply indicate an integrated security system in the weaponry, which is keyed to the Marines' power armours and possibly Astartes DNA. The way it's written, however, has a stench of a juvenile GM not wanting anyone but Da Coolest Marines be touchin' these kick-ass guns.

My view is that such a weapon simply stops working when wielded by anyone but a Marine.

Sandepande said:

I do like the idea of it being a biometric device or something fluffwise, but IMHO the impact of said security system in the RAW means it's a pretty piss poor security system. If I don't want people to hack into my computer I don't just make it crash more often or spout fire at them on occasion if they don't put in the right password, I want it to not let them in in the first place or melt to keep them out if it's that important.

Your solution, however, is much more elegant if you ask me. I still don't particularly like it in my games, but I can see why it's there.

The thing with astartes bolters and the 40k RPG rules in the first place is that they pretty much conflate ammunition type with weapon. That is, the damage of an astartes bolter is mostly its ammunition not the weapon itself. Generally all the gun does is provide increased accuracy via a longer rifled barrel, otherwise it's entirely down to the round's intrinsict qualities to dictate its damage. This is seen in the alternate ammunition available - it changes the damage of the gun by changing the ammunition fired by it.

Thus, it's not the astartes gun that you need to be worried about, it's the ammunition. Which is seen in the Angelus. Now as the astartes bolt rounds are 0.75 calibre just like normal bolt rounds and as has been made clear by other posters in that you can have the same calibre with a different powder cartridge, a normal bolter should be able to fire astartes rounds.

The only thing that would need changing is the magazine size and connection assuming it has a larger casing, which it may not - see 'astartes' gunpowder...

So you're far better off simply acquiring astartes bolts rather than astartes boltguns. Which bypasses any need to actually muck around with biometric scans and so on. Which, following my previous argument, is really just the same as getting best quality bolter rounds. Personally I find the quality rules rather lacking in a general sense, they don't do enough to warrant the cost increase. Extra damage and reliability should be a continual increase as the weapon increases in quality.

But anyway, if you can get a hold of astartes bolt rounds, then baring them actually having a different sized kicker cartridge, you should be able to fire them from a normal bolter.

Hellebore

stupid double post

Another controversial thought: what if the Astartes Bolter only does more damage because tof he Emperor's blessing. What if it is the combination of Marine, Holy Boltgun and Sacred Bolt ammunition that is required? And if one component is missing, the impact is much reduced?

I should note that the 40 universe I run isn't a simulationist realism themed one; it's a world of miracles and great evils.

Alex

I know that there is no fluff (at least to my knowledge) that says that the bolters used by Space Marines use any other form of ammunition than the bolters used by other Imperial forces, but in the game where I'm the Gm I've ruled that while they're all .75 caliber bolts, the ones used by marines has a higher, perhaps more densely packed charge of explosives.

The difference lies in the quality of the workmanship that goes into crafting the bolt rounds for marine chapters compared to the ones made for other forces.

Then again, one could argue that an Inquisitor or an acolyte in high regard should have access to equipment of similar quality.

ak-73 said:

There is no such thing as miracles, only men.

Charmander said:

"There is only the Emperor""

"He is our Shield and our Protector!"

Alex

ak-73 said:

Well Sabbat tells me he doesn't do miracles

Charmander said:

LOL, I have some Black Templar brothers who'd like to have a talk about this. :-)

Alex

borithan said:

The Desert Eagle and the Barrett both fire a .50 round, but one of them will still rip your arm off if you don't brace it before firing. Just because the rounds are the same size calibre doesn't do a thing to keep the Bolters that are used by the Astartes from being more powerful.

While Bolters don't fire bullets per se, and are more like gyrojets, I think a heavier (much heavier) firing charge and warhead could account for it easily.

Blood Pact said:

Ooh, good example. I hadn't thought about using the .50 BMG round and the .50 AE as examples for the reason why an Atartes Bolters would hurt so much more than a non- Astartes Bolter. Similar argument I've presented with the difference between a Standard Load 12-gauge shell and a Magnum Load; different scale.

But every depiction I've seen of a bolter firing shows it ejecting casings. The rounds are rocket-propelled, yes, but they are fired from the weapon similar to a modern bullet prior to the rocket igniting. Seems someone at GW thought about actual Gyro-Jet rounds and how they suck at close ranges due to lack of velocity.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Well, I would imagine it's something of a two-stage system, with a conventional charge like a bullet handling the initial launch, while the rocket kicks in and keeps it from losing velocity over long range. So that it will still punch through someone at close range, or rather punch in to them and let the mass-reactive cap do its job.

Which is another part I forgot, I would imagine that another aspect of the Astartes Bolter being more powerful is that a whole lot more work and quality is put in to their ammunition.

And on an overall related note, I'mpretty much of the same mind Siranui in their post at the top of the second page.

Blood Pact said:

That is the descriptions I've read- a 'standard charge' propells the bolt out of the boltgun, then the rockets engage and do the rest of the work. Thus the shell ejection.

A quick note to all the folks here who go on about the .75 caliber bolter issue. That's just the diameter of the round. There's a big difference between say a 110gr .30 Carbine round doing 1990fps and a 220 grain.300 Winchester Magnum round doing 2850fps though they both have a .30 caliber. Could easily be that the Astartes bolter round has a much greater payload and/or velocity than bolters made for normal humans.

darknite said:

Exactly!

I think most people here are familiar with the concept of calibre not equating to power. I'm personally of the school that has boltguns and pistols of the same calibre, but still of different sizes: There's not point putting a rocket capable of travelling 500m in a weapon accurate to 50m.

Canon has repeatedly suggested that boltguns are cased and do have recoil (Astartes bolt gun casings are valuable 'lucky charms' I believe), suggesting the round is fired conventionally, and then the rocket motor kicks in to accelerate the round and maintain velocity.