Now this question isn't quite as stupid as it sounds

I know how Requisition works in general (or so I think, I have just read it once), but I noticed that starting characters will hardly be able to get any gear save for what they start with because of the Renown-requirements. Yet you still will have somewhere around 70 Requisition each in most missions. What does a Rank 1 Marine actually spend all that Requisition on? A truck full of extra Heavy Bolters? Or is the answer simply "nothing" untill the character gainst some more Renown.

Honn said:

Remember that requisition is divided among battle-brothers (page 273, confirmed by Ross Watson in email after a bit of ado).

[EDIT: Now it got me confused myself, req is of course per player.]

The answer is that you use requisition only for simple improvements like speciality ammo or weapon upgrades. Or you get bored of using a bolter like you did last mission and want to use a flamer against the Emperor's enemies. That's about it for the Uninitiated PCs.

Alex

Honn said:

Yes, the simple answer is "nothing".

But specialty ammo and the odd pieces of gear will ofcourse be requisitioned. Probably nowhere near 50 though.

Then that is about what I figured

The whole system feels a bit odd actually. It feels like they wanted to give people enough Requisition that it should last at Hero-Renown, but couldn't bother to adapt the system to fit over all ranks. If I start playing Deathwatch more than a few times I would probably house-rule that. Perhaps something like you get a basic (rather low) Requisition for the mission, and then extra based on your Renown.

I've not seen them, but there are said to be alternate req rules in Emperor Protects that reduce the overal ammount of requisition available to something that feels more reasonable (at least reported by forumites that have the book).

Our kill-team (tac, 2 x lib, tech) has so far on two missions with tyranids gotten some non-standard items, everyone getting 35-40 req to spend: hand flamer, chainsword, missile launcher, extra repair cement, auspex, melta bomb, charm, teleport homer, dataslate, cartograph, glowglobes, hellfire rounds, chrono, vox caster, incindiary granade and probably some more. We've all had no problems using up all of our req points. I'd imagine they will disappear even faster as we reach higher renown.

So yeah, check the wargear lists for usable utility items.

See, half those 'utility' items should just be provided. 5 Reg for a dataslate? Really? So, I could get a magazine of Kraken rounds or a fancy notebook. Hmm.

In the game I GM, a dataslate is free (included to provide any mission objectives, info, etc., but it can still store whatever they might want [tech data, medical plans, etc.]). Power armor comes with a built in flashlight, if they for some reason want to illuminate something (with autosenses, they really have no need to do so themselves). You really don't need more than 1 auspex per team (and your techmarine will probably get an auger array quickly). Charms are RP items, and make no sense to requisition. Power armor has a built in chrono (it can monitor you and your team's biorythims but not tell you want time it is?).

Everyone carrying a spare missile launcher makes no sense, and hand flamers are garbage, beyond RP use (same with Incendiary anything).

Radomo said:

That was a summary of all the items anyone on the kill-team has taken during the course of two missions. So no, not everyone will have everything on the list. Just one person has taken a hand flamer once, the same with the missile launcher. I have no idea why someone would take a chrono as, you say, it's already in the power armour, but that didn't bother the tac taking it.

Besides, I thought it was a RPG? Pretty sure some people will RP and take equipment for that purpose. For the record, the one taking the hand-flamer was a librarian wielding a force sword in the other hand. I guess he wanted something against all the hordes of tyranids.

BrotharTearer said:

To deceive the xeno natives? "Here mighty xeno chieftain... take this as a shiny gift from the Imperium as a gesture of good will and offer of peace." And before anyone complains that no Marine would ever act this way, consider what happened to the native Americans...

Alex

Chainsword, after that, all else is secondary.

E

Narthecium + Diagnoser Helmet (Medicae taken as Elite advance)

Chainsword + Dipole lock

Auspex Scanner

The rest on special ammo - how much is a full ammo backpack of Kraken for a HB?

backpack or not doesn't matter

but heavy bolter per se get's you a backpack if I read correctly (although a fire selector get's you more standard rounds in one mag but more expensive ammunition)

heaby bolter ammo incurs +5 needed req

so go for a chainsword+dipole maglock a heavy weapon (bolter, rocket or flamer I don't care)

definitely a fire selector (2 free reloads per weapon) a preysense or red dot or telescopic maybe a silencer (if available to your weapon)

hellfire rounds.... definitely get those

maybe kraken rounds

medic goes for diagnostor helmet

leader goes for back banner

jump pack maybe

charm only works if not all of the chars take it

chrono can be used to make a timer for an explosive and I definitely wouldn't want to rip the chrono out of my power armour for that purpose

drugs and toxins... narthecium go for this if you are the medic

cluster mines (maybe here you can use the chrono)

combi tool

multikey

stummer... if you get enough you can cycle trhough them and have 1 acive at all times

definitely get at least 1 vox caster in your team

demolition charges (+chrono?)

then go for a bionic heart for +1 dmg reduction on the body location

if you're the tech get a MIU

and as many servo arms as you have weapons

require additional stuff related to the mission (homing beacon etc)

I haven't got my book to hand (at work), but iirc 250 rounds of Heavy Bolter Kraken (ammo backpack) was very expensive in requisition.

Speciallty ammon, demo charges, melta bombs, and some speciality grenades/missiles. You can burn through Reg pretty quick looking at that stuff.

Fresnel said:

I don't think 10 req is very expensive..?

The standard Clip of the Heavy Bolter is 60.

Kraken rounds are 5 + 5 (for HB) = 10 Requisition for 60 rounds.

Metal Storm rounds are 15 + 5 = 20 Requisition for 60 rounds.

Hellfire rounds are 25 + 5 = 30 Requisition for 60 rounds.

A reasonable loadout might be 60 rounds of Kraken, 60 rounds of Hellfire, 120 rounds of Metal Storm, 10 rounds standard.

This would cost: 10 + 30 + 40 = 80 Requisition

Fresnel said:

Well, with the backpack ammo supply which comes automaticly with any heavy weapon says you ignore the clip sizes, and I'd imagine you only take one type of ammo with you in that ammo pack (as it's rather hard to switch between different kindes of ammo in one, which you'd be able to with a fire selector. "****, I have to blow through these 40 rounds of kraken before I can shoot my hellfires on this hive tyrant. Shoulda went just hellfire. Bummer.").

So I'd rule it as 250 rounds of one type of speciality ammo, +5 to the cost. Much cheaper, but not the same range of ammo. Which isn't that bad considering the cost would be the same for any other character who tried to do something like that. Or well, it would be 20 req cheaper for anyone else. 60 or 80, it's still pretty expensive for anyone, and the HB still get much more ammo for those 20 req over the others.

Running around with 4 spare HB ammo packs á 60 rounds I find much harder to believe, considering the sizes. You need that backpack, which isn't a fire selector.

This isn't a valid reading of the RAW.

P 159

"The cost of special ammunition listed in Table 5-11: Special Issue Ammunition represents one clip for any applicable weapon, expect Pistols, which halve the listed Requisition...."

The section dictates how many rounds you get for the calculated requisition cost (a standard clip worth) - whether you store that ammo in standard clip, an ammo backpack, an ammo case or a plant pot is irrelavent to the requisition cost. RPG rules don't get much clearer. For HBs the X requisition buys 60 rounds - anything else is a house rule.

So, as you can see, spending all your Requisition is not so hard...

Sure it is.

Page 159: "A weapon connected to a backpack supply uses that supply for its ammunition and ignores its normal clip size."

With such a specific rule it would overrule the general rule of a clip being 60 rounds. Ergo, it's the normal HB req cost for a backpack supply with 250 rounds (which is now the "clip").

This prevents the heavy bolter from having multiple types of ammo in a single backpack supply. Would be a bit awkward if you had 9 rounds of metal storm left, and hellfire after (which can only be fired with single shots), when the rate of fire is s/-/10. That issue won't come up if it's all the same type of ammo in the backpack supply.

Fresnel said:

You're right that the core rulebook doesn't make it a valid reading of the RAW. However a look at the errata thread gives you this:

"1) It states on page 159, in the 1st paragraph titled Special Issue Ammunition: “Special Issue Ammunition for Heavy Bolters adds +5 to the requisition total.” This is due to the increased clip size. Which clip size does this refer to? The clip size of 60 of the Heavy Bolter or the clip size of 250 for the Backpack Ammo Supply?

Page 159, second paragraph simply states that Special Issue Ammunition for Heavy Bolters adds +5 to the requisition total.

The +5 applies to all special issue ammunition for Heavy Bolters, regardless of whether it is in the backpack or the weapon clip/magazine."

Cheerio,

Alex

ak-73 said:

In the clear context of the text it is comparing Heavy Bolter clips (60) to normal Bolter clips (28) or a Bolter Pistols clip (14) - which is half requisition.

An ammo backpack is not a clip.

Any other interpretation is blatant sophisty - as I suspect you know.

BrotharTearer said:

Firstly, the section you quote from relates to the operational mechanics an Ammo Backpack - it does not address the requisition costs of the ammo within in any way.

Seriously, the requisition system is there to ensure finite supplies are managed - your 'interpretation' would allow Kill Teams to get more than x4 of this finite supply as otherwises allowed.

• Pistol Clips (14 rounds): Half the standard requisition cost
• Bolter Clips (24 or 28 rounds): Normal requisition cost
• Heavy Bolter Clips (60 rounds): Normal requisition cost +5

You are seriously claiming that 250 rounds should cost the same as 60?

Secondly, a mixture of ammo within an Ammo Backpack can be chosen with a Fire Selector (p157).

Fresnel said:

It does. As the backpack ammo supply, which comes with a heavy weapon, for all intents and purposes is your "clip".
This means, as per the quote from the errata thread alex posted ("The +5 applies to all special issue ammunition for Heavy Bolters, regardless of whether it is in the backpack or the weapon clip/magazine."), that it doesn't matter if you're using the usual HB clips or a backpack ammo supply, it always costs +5 req due to being heavy bolter ammo.

How stupid wouldn't it be if you had to pay extra req to "fill up" your backpack ammo supply, just because it can take more rounds than a standard clip? The Deathwatch has no shortage of ammo (as both Ross and the book says) for its kill-teams, that's why a full backpack ammo supply with 250 rounds costs the same as a standard 60 round clip.

There are however advantages and disadvantages of using a backpack ammo supply over the standard heavy bolter clips:

1. You can bring more rounds with a backpack ammo supply, and don't have to reload every 6 full-auto bursts. 250 vs 60 rounds (and the few spare clips you might have).
2. The req cost for special ammo is the same for a backpack ammo supply and the standard heavy bolter clip of 60 rounds.
3. A backpack ammo supply can only contain one type of bolts, so you can't switch between different ones as the situation demands, like you could if you were using standard clips. This makes it really important for the character to pick the most suitable kind of ammunition for the mission at hand, as he can't switch later. (A very important point this)
4. You can't carry very many standard heavy bolter clips, which makes a backpack ammo supply favourable.
5. You can't bring spare backpacks, so when those 250 rounds are gone, you're out of ammo for your heavy bolter. How is this not finite ? You have to rememeber that marines who use heavy weapons with backpack ammo supplies more or less are using only that weapon, and don't bring much else. When those rounds are gone, they have lost their main weapon, while others probably have some kind of melee weapon or backup weapon. A devastator would have to run around with a bolt pistol.
6. With a backpack ammo supply you can't have anything else on your back (so no jetpack), and it's not like you can easily drop your heavy bolter on the ground and adapt to a situation, because it's connected to the backpack.

So yes, I'm claiming that 250 rounds (a backpack ammo supply of one type of ammo) costs the same as a standard clip of 60. They just have their advantages and disadvantages.

And you can't use a fire selector on a heavy weapon (only SP/bolt pistols and basic weapons), so that's a no go for using it with a backpack ammo supply. So no mixture. And as I've said before, different types of ammo in a backpack ammo supply would cause issues when several types of bolts are fired with the same full-auto burst.

I handle the issue slightly differently in my group. To fill the Backpack with non standard HB ammo you have to pay the costs for 4 HB clips, only one type of ammunition can go into the backpack, the beltfeed can be plugged into a fire selector just like a basic clip. The devastator decided to fill the backpack with normal ammo in most cases, and plug a clip or two of special ammo into the fire selector.

To Brothar Tearer:

P159 "Astartes Backpack Ammo Supply"

Says "A weapon connected to a backpack supply uses that supply for its ammunition and ignores its normal clip size".

It doesn't say "To all intents and purposes the weapon's clip is now the backpack supply (including requisition costs)."

The section "Astartes Backpack Ammo Supply", doesn't mention requisition at all. It just tells you the operational mechanics of the backpack supply system. Your position is best described as weak.

I remain similarly unconvinced by your other arguments. Although the lack of an Fire Selector option for ammo backpacks is a point in your favour.

However, your assertion that a Space Marine cannot refill his own ammo backpack is baseless. Refilling magazines is part of basic training. Imo it would be silly to rule that a Devastator marine wouldn't be trained to refill his backpack. We have no info on how quick this might be, so it would be up to the GM.

It could simply involve detaching the ammo feed on the h.bolter and attaching it to a clip - the feed then hoovers up the contents. He then ejects the clip and reattached the feed to the h.bolter. This would take two or three rounds. Alternatively he might have to remove the backpack and manually feed the rounds in. This would take minutes, but easily done out of combat.

If we assume last-in-first-out he would have the option of 'front loading' the special ammo into the feed. He would take extra ammo (including special ammo) in 60 round clips (as issued) . He can then front load special ammo as he chooses. If you assume a two round operation then the devastator marine will still have a lot of tactical flexibility. Even if he runs out of special ammo, he is simply left with 190 rounds of standard (cry him a river)...

How many spare h.bolter clips a devastator marine can carry is up to the GM, but 2 or 3 sounds reasonable to me (120 or 180 rounds).

In any case, as a GM I would allow an advanced Backpack with built-in Fire Selector for 5 requisition.