Similar to this thread,

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=165&efcid=3&efidt=411294&efpag=0#413314

I am trying to figure how Edge of Night's Sigmund (?) von Saponatheim is related to TEW's Bogenhafen ruler, Graf Wilhelm von Saponatheim. His mother is also a Jungefreud named Olga.

His profile says that if Sigmund is asked about Bogenhafen, he states that he rarely visits the town. Why?

Also, by googling 'Baron Von Saponatheim', I found out that the name itself is a pun, which becomes clearer if you say it 10 times. Anyone care to enlighten me on the pun, because I fail to see it.

Von Saponatheim sounds like Once Upon a Time when said in a fake German accent (for native English speakers anyway...)

....."Vonce apon a time"

...It is a terrible pun

Haha, I thought it had something to do with

'Sap on a theme' or something.

pumpkin said:

Ah! now! I! finally! get! it!

thanks a lot pumpkin!

plutonick said:

But the second question remains unanswered. Why does the Saponatheim lordling in Edge of Night 'rarely visit Bogenhafen'?

It makes sense that if they share the same mother, the two Von Saponatheims are brothers, Wilhelm being the eldest. This then explains why the younger brother is the one looking for his own lands to rule.

In terms of why he doesn't go to Bogenhafen, maybe it's as simple as he finds it dull? There's a reference in Sigmars' Heirs to Graf Wilhelm leaving the running of Bogenhafen to the Town Council, so that he can get on with hawking, hunting and riding. Given that Siegfried's skills are more urban, perhaps he's been spending his time in Altdorf as it offers more 'opportunities'. When I run Edge of Night soon, this reasoning is going to explain why Siegfried's coach is on the Stromdorf road (it was sent by his mother to collect him from Auerswald when he arrived by boat).

I wasn't aware that they were brothers. I thought it was a distant cousin or something. Is this canon?

Not canon, just my interpretation. If they both have a mother who's a Jungfreud called Olga, then it makes sense to see them as brothers.

Where is it stated that Bogenhaffen Baron von Saponatheim's mother is called Olga? That would settle it, but I can't find it.

erm...may source was your first post.

I've just noticed that I've misread,"His mother's also a von Jungfreud called Olga".

Even so, brothers still makes sense, but then so does father/son now that I've learned to read. I don't think you're going to get anything definitive from sources.

plutonick said:

p.28 in EoN book, bottom left. "Olga von Jungfreud, Graf Siegfried's formidable mother"

von Sap close to being the most powerful family in the Reikland (if they win Ubersreik, as mentioned in the text).

I think he means Wilhelm's mother...who isn't mentioned.

He could be Graf Siegfried-Wilhelm von Saponatheim...

There is no Whilhelm mentioned about them, only his younger brother Sigmund (with the "vapid and useless" adjective refering to him). Seems he is the eldest

Baron Wilhelm is mentioned in the Town Politics section of Ill Met in Bogenhafen, in Sigmar's Heirs (p103) and in Shadows over Bogenhafen (p 6).

Thanks for pointing it out though as I think it solves the puzzle. Baron Wilhelm is the eldest brother as it states in edge of night that Siegfiried is 'not the head of the entire family' (p 27) and is 'a second son' (p 34), however Sigmund is, as you say, mentioned as Siegfried's younger brother. Therefore, WIlhelm, the ruler of Bogenhafen and as such head of the family must be the unmentioned older brother!!!

There you go, the Noble House of von Saponatheim:

Baron Wilhem von Saponatheim, Graf Siegfried von Saponatheim, Sigmund von Saponatheim, the sons of Olga von Jungfreud and her now dead husband.

All referenced from WFRP texts too.

Bertolac said:

That's fun...but in that way there is a big mistake in the nobility titles: 'Baron' is the weakest nobility title (basically all the lesser family should have at least this title) while 'Graf' (wich means Count) is one of the most important, wich in warhammer should be second only to the Emperor and Electors Count (even if this should be only a matter of prestige, since some electors are not part of the nobility at all)

Also, this disparity of title seems to be impossible for some close relatives as brothers...this should imply that they must have the same father, but different mothers...and one was clearly a courtesan or maybe a peasant!

Who was Olga's husband then? Was he a famous Saponatheim, or he was never mentioned in any sourcebook? How did he die?

Ghiacciolo said:

Well...Wilhem is also listed as 'Graf' in the gazetteer for Reikland in Sigmar's Heirs (p82). He's also only ever referred to as 'Baron' in direct relation to Bogenhafen. Given that it's possible to hold more that one title (look at Karl-Franz!), is it possible that Wilhelm's full title is: Graf Wilhelm von Sapontheim, Baron of Bogenhafen?

Alternatively, it's worth noting that 'Baron' is the title in V1 and the reference in Sigmar's Heirs was clearly a straight copy from Shadows. The confusion of title is possibly explained by the idea that Baron von Saponatheim was elevated to Graf von Saponatheim at some time between 2512 (The Enemy Within) and 2521 (the Storm of Chaos).

Please don't ask me why Siegfried is a Graf too, as I just don't know. However, WIlhelm being head of the family and having inherited all the titles might explain why Siegfried never goes there - he's sulking!

As to their father, I can't help you there Plutonick. Unless WIlhelm is the father, but that then leaves the older brother unaccounted for.

As far as I know, Shadows Over Bogenhafen, Sigmar's Heirs and Edge of Night are the only WFRP texts that mention the Saponatheim family and I think I've covered everything mentioned. To my mind, the three brothers interpretation makes sense, doesn't directly contradict anything official and fleshes out Siegfried's family more than enough.

Here ends my attempt to answer your question...

...or maybe not.

I've just had a thought. They're both Graf because they are twins and nobody could remember which one was born first. However, huntin', shootin' and fishin' Wilhelm was daddy von Saponatheim's favourite and so named heir. However, clever little Siegfried was Olga's favourite, hence why she is busting a gut on his behalf in Ubersreik. There's a schism between the twins because of daddy's choice and Siegfried has sworn to only return to Bogenhafen when he's head of the family (i.e. when WIlhelm is dead).

There are no references for this bit as I made it up! (It's fun this lineage stuff)

I had the exact same idea as you before I read your post! So it MUST be true!