So anyone daring to use a space marine weapon (any space marine weapon) has it count as a class heavier, ridiculous -30 to hit, the weapon try's to kill you AND Imperial officials spit on you.

Where as a space marine in the oposite situation can spend a turn be pulling parts off weapons untill they fit.

So the question's:

1, So has this come up in a DW game? Have your Space Marines looked down on a fallen SoB's Inferno pistol and started pulling bit's off it while the Ad Mech and Techmarines give him high fives?

2. Has anyone played DH / RT and done it the other way round? Taken a marine storm bolter, replaced the handle, and used it with bulging biceps instead of a HB?

Technology is mostly arcane in W40k, there is a strong probability that astartes weapons have biometric safe guards to keep other than astartes to use their weapons (that are, by far, superior).

Face Eater said:

In Oblivion's Edge they had a Chimera with a Heavy Bolter. Suddenly there was this glint in the eyes of the players.. until they realized that it was a non-Astartes Heavy Bolter (I used the stats from DH) and that their Bolt Pistols were more effective.

Alex

Xalendar said:

That's a given, and nice little point to add by the writers. But now that they've mentioned it, wouldn't a lot of the Imperiums elite's be using similar kind of biometric locks?

It's a great little background point too, what if, for these expensive weapons, those prayers that you are supposed to say aren't just for show but voice activation codes, what if there are complicated rituals of binding a weapon to it's user is actually a way of programming the weapons user recognition.

And the closer you are to your potential enemy the more important they are, so say Sisters of battle and the Inquisition with there expensive gear and likely hood of routing around in populated areas makes it pretty essential. Also the Arbites, if it was invented for Judge dread it has to be good for Arbites.

So basically the better a weapon (and thus more tempting to snaffle) the more likely it is to have a protected machine spirit and the more likely it is that the techmarines and Ad mech are going to start crying when you pull bit's off.

^I like this^

As to DH characters pulling parts off a storm bolter... I think that's a non-starter. Aren't DH Bolters .50cal, whereas Space Marine ones are .75?

I don't see DH characters as having a chance of safely firing Asartes weaponry.

Ummmmm since when do Space Marine weapons kill someone who isn't a Space Marine for using it and Imperial Officials spitting on them?

muzzyman1981 said:

Deathwatch page 146; sidebar - Man's Reach Exceeds His Grasp

• " The GM may also choose to impose other problems from the rebellious machine spirit based on the nature of a weapon (a plasma weapon may require Toughness Tests due to routine heat venting; a power weapon my run the risk of feedback, etc.).

If you don't think those examples are likely to cause injuries which could lead to death for a non-Astartes wielder, then why would they bother mentioning them at all, do you think? Does an Astartes weapon have to be quite so rebellious in the hands of a "mere mortal" man or woman? No, not really. There are those who may prove to be worthy of the honor.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Brother Praetus said:

The best bit about that little section is 'obtaining one should never be the result of a resource or influence roll.'

Really? Cause with that roll (albeit it difficult) I could obtain the Space Marines to use them, or wipe out a planet, or get a weapon dirived from the Emperors backside it's self but a Space Marine bolter is unobtainable.

I like your interp of the prayers as voice activation codes and the like, I've always seen the machine spirit thing as a religious interp of stuff people just don'tknow how to use anymore.

In my campaign, I simply have kept the 'one class bigger' rule and the social implications of toting around an Astartes weapon. It makes sense given the damag profile and general size that it would be hard to fire the wepons built for a bigger man in PA (ignoring the fact that regular people can fit in PA). There is an inquisitor NPC in the watch station my group is at who totes a pistol around that he uses for a rifle- he's got a backstory that also 'allows' him to have it as well, but it is designed around the concept that a non Astartes with the weapon is rare, and that guy must have done something cool. And as for when a SM starts to take parts off someone else's gun, well it depends on who is around to see it whether or not he gets a demerit.

The -30 seems high, and even if the prayers and the like were biometrics, why would the weapon even work at that point- that's a pretty crap biometric device if all it does is make the weapon harder to use. Make the damned thing impossible to use if you're going to do anything, or just detonate and take the rogue operator out. I could see the argument that the weapon's patterns are different enough that you might impose a full or partial 'untrained skill' penalty on someone using them, but the rebellious machine spirit thing really just seems like a way for them to keep these uber guns out of the other two lines.

As for finding or obtaining one, it's hard, but never impossible. I've not have any DH/RT try and get Astartes weapons yet (well they asked in someone else's campaign and were just flat told no and we moved on), but I would also not allow it to be the result of a single roll- I would require the aquisition of such an item to be RP'd out.

As for the other line's bolters- everything I've seen in DH/RT indicates the bolters are the same but....crappier. They're still .75 cal but they just lack the punch of a 'real man's' gun. They describe it as 'civilian grade' but they don't mention them being smaller caliber.

Face Eater said:

Yes, the only way you normally "get" Space Marine weapons is with their Space Marine wielder, not apart. Not that SMs are "owned" by a Rogue Trader or Inquisitor in any case. Even an acquisition or influence roll only means you've gotten them to assist you, a very different propostion from owning them.

Xalendar said:

From wikipedia:

Biometrics comprises methods for uniquely recognizing humans based upon one or more intrinsic physical or behavioral traits.

With that definition, seriously injuring anyone who doesn't have an Astartes durability would count as a biometric safeguard

A pretty good one, as there would be fewer people would want to tamper with it (compared to tampering with a weapon intended for humans), as bypassing it would also lessen the weapons effectiveness. Lets take a bolter as an example, since SMs can handle more recoil, the guns can be designed to fire bolts that generate more recoil*. To bypass it you would either have to suppress the recoil (making an already bulky gun** bulkier) or weaken it to reduce the recoil.

*Probably a more powerful launching charge to launch a heavier bolt.

Decessor said:

If you increase the difficulty of the roll (very difficult by now I'll grant you) you can get them on a permanent basis, and as a dully appointed representive of the Emperor you will effectively own those Space Marines.

But really, I'm playin devils advocate here, I know exactly what I would do in the situation.

If an Inquisitor character really wanted a Space Marine Bolter and made the necesary roll then a Techpriest entourage would turn up with a Space Marine bolter, adapted for his use, with a little bow on it with card that read 'Dear Inquisitor, keep doing what you are doing, Love The Master of the Forge.' For every chapter that doesn't like the inquisition there's 1.2 chapters that work with Inquisition all the time (and even the chapters that don't may well be pleasantly surprised that the Inquisition only need a bolter (for some reason) rather than another geneseed sample.

But before they even made the roll, I'd ask them to justify why they want SM bolter, as I would still make it one weapon class higher. If they wanted a heavy bolter with more damage then I'd let them find a human sized heavy bolter that does as much damage (at least they wouldn't be using an Autocannon) if they wanted bolt pistol to use a short range basic weapon, then I'd find them some master crafted bolter more similiar damage but has longer range, from somewhere.

Likewise if a Space Marine was going to start pulling bits off a weapon it would depend on the SM the weapon and who was watching. An Iron Hand, for and extreme example, would probably have pangs of guilt about desecrating a guards lasgun that was proping open a door, while a Space Wolf might be happy to break an Inquisitors powersword in half if he wanted a tent peg, at least while theres no techpriests around.

Face Eater said:

Even permanent reassignment (when the space marines will likely outlive the Inquisitor) is still a far cry from "Now hand me your sacred weapon, minion." But sure, playing devil's advocate is fun.

Face Eater said:

Thing is, even with the best will in the world, a Master of the Forge cannot make a boltgun for a normal human as lethal as a SM version. If for no other reason, then anything short of a superhuman in the best power armour available won't be able to take the recoil and use the weapon effectively. There are examples of Inquisitors so genetically modified and/or laced with bionics that they *can* use full-scale SM weapons without issue but they are rarities even amongst that organisation.

Example: Inquisitor Lord Hector Rex

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Daemonhunters_/INQUISITOR-LORD-HECTOR-REX-AND-RETINUE.html

As for pulling bits off lesser weapons, some weapons would be more worthy of respect than others. Even a "mortal" inferno pistol is still a masterpiece of near-archeotech and should be treated with care. Though I *could* see a Space Wolf doing as you suggest!

Decessor said:

Considering that having a SM unit on hand means dealing with the the logistic chain, a rogue trader probably has to take on crates of spare bolters let alone other supplies and an Inquistor could be litterally dripping with proper deamon ******* holy weapons, the same inquisition that pretty decide what is holy and what isn't. So who's it sacred to? Maybe a space marine does consider it sacred oath to be issued a bolter but they aren't likely to care what happens to weapons before they get them if the Holy Ordo's say it's OK.

Decessor said:

If some-ones' willing to use an SM bolter as a HW then yes they can, you may have noticed that human heavy bolter are far from designed to be used from the hip, more like from a tripod by a team of men. And what's more If you find that special someone that can fire a autocannon from the hip, shells which are larger than space marine heavy bolter rounds, and fly further, and are propelled entirely by the initial charge then yes they can deal with the recoil of a space marine bolter.

Face Eater said:

Bear in mind that SM chapters aren't quite as beholden to the Inquisition as normal Imperial forces. That and most chapters aren't that awed by the Ecclesiarchy and its take on worshipping the Emperor. I think the average SM would be pretty pissed off at Astartes weapons being mishandled (i.e. used) by someone not specifically authorised to do so (it could easily be taken as disrespecting their independence/views of the Emperor/etc). That said, if they respected an Inquisitor/RT enough that wouldn't be an issue.

Face Eater said:

Ah yes, I'd overlooked the increased step. Sure, a worthy individual could fire a bolt pistol/gun. It would still be rare to find a "mortal" who could make the most efficient use of it (that -30 is a pain).

Decessor said:

Well that's it really, getting something for keeps (and it would need to be for keeps if you were correcting it for human hands) isn't an easy roll if it's a rare item anyway so that's covered, seeing as the rare / completely heretical stuff that your can, thoretically, get hold of. Especially as they are all made on Forge worlds so even uncoperative chapters can be side stepped, although the Mechanicus of course is whole different nut to crack.

Decessor said:

Well personally I'd not even give it the -30 if it's been adjusted, as much as possible, for human users. For a bolter, unless you have bulging biceps you are firing it from a tripod anyway. And if a group found a Marine bolter on the ground i wouldn't let them use it all, I reckon the spirit is more protective than that. Maybe if, IF, the just passed a tech use test to appease the spirit but it was still ansy I'd let them fire it at -30.

But the overall point is, with those limitiations I would just let someone have a really good human bolter, if they were going that far out of their way. A good human bolter can do more comparable damage it just can't be fired as fast out the barrel right? I mean for most of the flight it's the bolt itself that propells it. I mean the point of a bolter is that the damage isn't proportional to it's recoil right? You are supposed to be able to fire bolts much larger than the normal firearm rounds can fire.

Charmander said:

I liken the difference between "civilian" and Astartes bolt rounds to the differences between a regular round and a magnum round of identical calibers. Best real life example would probably be the difference between a standard 12-gauge (.729 caliber by 2.75) shell and the bigger 12-gauge magnum (.729 by 3.5) shells. My two pence.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Here's an interesting thought for folks' PC's on the "omg I want an SM bolter cause it does 2d10++ where mine only does 1d10+5"... without metagaming... how do their characters know that their bolters aren't as good? I mean, it's not like a PC will ever actually get to examine one to compair. It'll be rare, even in Rogue Trader, for the PC's to even see a Space Marine in action (assuming they don't req some Space marines for something), and even then, how do they know that (like they say) that Space Marines aren't the Emperor's Wrath Personified, and thus, a bolter does a Space Marine way more good because they're far above being a petty mortal creature?

The simple fact of the matter is, I'm John Doe the RT, and I just witnessed a space marine scythe down a hundred tyranids in less than a minute with his bolter! There is no actual way for the RT to emulate that, even WITH a space marine bolter, even without the man's reach exceeds his grasp rules. Now, say I've got these SM's doing something for me, cleansing this, purifying that, and I do really good, I save one of them somehow, someway, that those battle brothers, they like me. Brother Baub says hey, this guys' been eying up the butt kicking we've been handing out, we should give him a present, how bout a shiny MC bolter... obviously not one of ours, he's not genetically enhanced or anything, still a mere mortal, send back to Macgragge and have them send out one of the shiny gold care package bolters, he'll like that, it'll make him feel more like one of us. When it arrives on board months (years whatever) later with the note, "Hey buddy, thanks for the help on Sigma Gamma Nu 243244558, we saw you looking at Brother Shootsalot's bolter so we had one specially made for you! purge and cleanse in the name of the godemperor and whatnot! thx!" What's the RT going to think? That the noble, super astartes gave him a bum bolter? or that they gave him a gift of infinite worth?

The simple fact is, the regular humans of the Imperium have no idea that a space marine bolter is any different from the very rare bolter they can get ahold of. What they can be sure of is, that bolters made for space marines are just that, holy, because they're made for space marines. It's the players metagaming by looking at the better statline and saying "well dayumn I want one". If you REALLY want to make it a non-issue, do away with all of the penalties except the 1 size larger (since, they are made for 6-7ft tall superheroes) and tune the damage back to 1d10+5 (afterall, in D&D style, a Holy Avenger sword was only a super-duper sword to a Paladin, to everyone else, it was just badass).

and if none of this makes sense, this is probably flu generated delirium making me type anti-metagaming retorhic at 2am.

@BrotherHostower. Not pick apart the minute of the system mechanics like an Alabama school board with a bible, on this forum, clearly sir you are suffering from your disease

But yes, other than a very knowledgable Tech Priest or getting hold of a copy of 'What Bolter?' in DH and RT most players would not even care (unless you consistantly put them against the badguys from DW) and nor should they. If your like me you were happy enough to see a full auto bolter in RT.

That isn't exactly going to going to go unoticed in a joint game, especially if said non-SM is a lady who didn't want play a man and of course there are no female space marines.

But I digress, I didn't want this to turn into another bolter thread (foolish me) the point is that these rules aply to any weapon anyway regardless of recoil.

Face Eater said:

I think there would be plenty of skill that would suggest to a DH/RT player that the marines have better and more powerful gear. Just looking at the weapon would tell you it likely kills stuff more effectively- it's bigger and probably prettier. My guardsman stood in the shadow of the marine fro PtU and I had no idea that his did 1d10 while the Astartes did 2d10, but he still wanted one. The fact that the bolt weapon description in DH calls them "civilian" models also lends to this concept. Then DW goes to imply that all SM weapons are Astartes grade and are all larger and prettier. Who wouldn't want the weapons available to the Emperor's Finest?

Charmander said:

Darned puritans, that's who.

Alex

ak-73 said:

Well now I'll use the previous argument I fought against- how would anyone but the educated know that the reason they're not supposed to use marine weapons is codified, rather than just an example of a caste system where if you weren't born a marine they don't issue you the good stuff, they just give you your lasgun, your uplifing primer, and tell you to try and die standing?

Charmander said:

Because everything relating to the Astartes is sacred and you're just a mere mortal?

Who would take and assume ownership of the sword of an angel, especially if one has to assume the angel might have been slain by forces of darkness? Radicals, criminals, the curious... they wouldn't mind. The puritans, the faithful, the devout... they might turn it over to church.

Similar here?

Alex

Charmander said:

- People who like using guns that they can aim with. Not guns that were built for giants.

- People who don't like risking their arms breaking (or worse) every time they pull the trigger.

- People who are worried about The Emperor's Angels of Death wanting the weapon back.

- People who don't like dealing with very shady characters just to source ammo for their gun.

Bilateralrope said:

Yes but those people have no sense of adventure