I am trying to piece together the Jungfreund family and it's relation to Ubersreik and adjastent lands. However, the clues are placed all over the books (Eye for an Eye, Signs of Faith, Gathering storm) and it's hard to get the grasp of what is what.

So far, I know that

A Jungfreund witchhunter eradicated a cult (unblinking eye?) in Altdorf (aEfaE) (I am possibly wrong here. Was it a Brunner witchhunter?)

A female Jungfreund gave birth to Andreas Brunner (aEfaE)

A Jungfreud (Sigismund?) appointed Addler in Stromdorf (TGS)

Jungfreud appointed Agnetha Brunner's husband in Hugeldal (signs of faith)

Olga Jungfreund is Saponatheim's mother (Edge of Night)

Also, from Mad Alfred's site, I got the information that Jungfreunds are the rulers of the Ubersreik freistadt.

1. Any more info on Jungfreuds?

2. What exactly is a magistrate? Something like a judge?

3. Are Brunners a house created by FFG for the 3rd edition, or did they exist in 2nd and 1st?

4. In light of the Edge of Night module, I am also confused to the following. If Jungfreund's are rules of Ubersreik, then how is it a Freistadt? Isn't those two facts mutually exclusive? I suppose I am confused on what a Freistadt is exactly. Also, what is the role of the city council in a Freistadt, or in a town that has a liev

From what i understood (i only read 3ed materials and still may be wrong), a Free City is ruled by an appointed/elected family without the need to report to the usual hierarchy of the Empire (the money stops at the city, but it has to finance everything for itself, political autonomy to an extent).

The Graf Sigismund von Jungfreud was ruling over Ubersreik freidstadt until a political & economic conflict with Auverswald (or close to that name) provoked the intervention of the Reikland Elector, the Emperor himself (small armies were hired, troups mouvements, etc.). As a result, Ubersreik free city status almost got revoked. Instead, the Graf Sigismund von Jungfreud has to step down, a new ruler has to be appointed (context of the Edge of Night or close). He still is probably the most powerfull/richest noble of the Ubersreik area.

Most likely, with the freidstadt status, Ubersreik has a "city council" that elects the ruler. But he is chosen among the major political families, by the major political families (including rich merchants). I would guess it is not too hard for the richest one to get elected thru political manipulations and such.

The Magistrate von Bruner is an Empire's Law authority (judge/D.A. style), Graf von Jungfreud's cousin. He is the one who ordered, a few years back, the executions linked to the Unblinking Eye Cult in Altdorf. The revenge, mentioned in the Eye for an Eye, was to get back at him, his son Andreas (nephew of von Jungfreud) being a good target to hurt the Magistrate. The von Bruner are the one in disgrace because of the events from the "an Eye for an Eye" intro scenario, and not really running for office during Edge of Night.

That makes things a lot clearer. A couple of comments/questions

Brunner's are in disgrace because of aEfaE. Since edge of night is very slow at start, (gossip gathering) I ddecided to incorporate the Horror at Hugeldal adventure too. I suppose by the end of this adventure Brunners will be further disgraced? Haven't read the whole scenario yet, but there are some pointers towards that direction.

Ubersreik Freistadt's basically means, that there is a noble family elected by the people that rules the city council, but all 'public works' shall be paid by the family instead by the empire?

Ehy, that seems another very interesting topic!

As far as i remember, if we suppose that the empire is inspired by the medieval germanic empire, i intend as "freistadt" a city who respond directly ONLY to the emperor himself, whitout any intermediation of a land-noble family.

I dont own "edge of night", but even in the preview about Ubersreik, it is said that the von jungfreud ruled this city (this fact is reported also in 2ed material "Sigmars' heirs") until the near civil-war conflict whit Auserwald (ruled by the the von Wallenstein -"sigmar's heirs"). At this point the Emperor decreted that Ubersreik is now a free city. I suppose that this means:

1. the von Jungfreud is now a "disgraced" family, as it seems they own and rule the lands near ubersreik (up to Stromdorf), but now they have lost their most rich city.
2. Ubersreik is formally ruled by an imperial representative, but i would say that in practice is administred by a city council of "burghers" and also dwarfs representatives. This would piss off nobles families even more! (as such, was in "sigmars heirs")

The AEfaE adventure says something about the von Bruner:

1. they are a minor noble family, they own just some land near the lodge and they reside in Ubersreik
2. MAYBE they are a minor branch of the von jungfreuds
3. Heismann von bruner is the father of Andreas, and he is/was an imperial magistrate (i intend here that "magistrate" is like an assignement from imperial power: that means that he have the "job" to administer justice (organizing the inquire, ruling the trial, judging accusated ppl, etc...but only in imperial matters, just like wiping out a chaos cult!). Whit the help of witch hunters he discovered and put to an end the unblinking eye in Altdorf.
4. Andreas mother was a distant relative of von jungfreud (otherwise she would have not married Heissmann, since he's only a minor noble)
5. von bruners are now in disgrace, if news of what happened in grunewald lodge spreads
6. anyway, they are not mentioned in 2ed material, nor in 1ed.

Apart from "gazeteers" there are no news about jungfreuds in 1ed/2ed material i've seen and remember...

The 2nd Ed book Sigmar's Heir has the seat of von Jungfreud being Blackrock Fortress, which is part of the walls of Ubersreik. It also lists them as controlling the surrounding villages and mines (such as Hugeldahl).

The way I interpret this is that the von Jungfreuds are the most powerful noble family in the region, with minor families who have estates in the area of Ubersreik like the von Bruners, Aschaffenbergs owing allegiance to them. The affair with Auerswald has caused the von Jungfreuds to fall out of favour with the Emperor (who is also the Grand Duke of Reikland, and so their liege lord) who has stripped Ubersreik (and its taxes) from the family as a punishment.

This still leaves Graf Sigismund von Jungfreud as the major power-player in the region, as all other local noble families nominally owe allegiance to him. However, with the Emperor possibly looking to return a noble ruler to Ubersreik, he doesn't want to give it directly back to the von Jungfreuds but would make it an independent 'barony' (?) whose ruler owes direct allegiance to the Grand Duke of Reikland (the Emperor).

As far as I understand it, the von Bruners were the obvious choice for this honour, but the affair at Grunwald Lodge and the subsequent slur on the family name opens up the field and prompts the von Holzenhauers, Aschaffenbergs and von Saponatheims to compete for the blessing of local dignitaries, whose opinions are likely to affect the decision of the Emperor's representatives when they come to make a decision.

An interesting outcome for EoN would be that no matter who the PC's support and what happens, they earn the enmity of the von Jungfreuds. In fact, the von Jungfreuds present an interesting option for a nemesis organisation (Powermongers?) whose agenda is reclaiming lordship of Ubersreik. Have the von Jungfreuds been dabbling with chaos in order to set up the von Bruners (An Eye for an Eye)? Is it they who are prompting Witch Hunters and Flagellants to disturb the civic peace to show that Ubersreik needs a strong hand? Are they dealing with Skaven to prove that Ubersreik cannot run itself (Edge of Night)? How much do they know about the plague in Hugeldahl (Horror of Hugeldahl)?

Haven't got a clue if I've answered any of your questions but I've certainly got myself thinking...

Bertolac said:

Me too... I'll really have to dig into my books! (And actually start a game.)

Angelic Despot said:

Actually I now got even more questions, but that's ok. It seems I am more intersted in the history of Jungfreuds than my players. I suppose they can roleplay their ignorance as their character's ignorance and general confusion regarding large noble houses.

However your summary provided my with enough adventure seeds to use during Edge of Night.

By the way, which books are you refering too? Sigmar's heir?

The 2nd Edition Empire sourcebook Sigmar's Heirs has a little blurb about Ubersreik in it and a gazetteer of towns and villages across the Empire. The Ubersreik blurb only adds the info on Black Rock fortress to what's in the 3rd ed stuff, and the gazetteer identifies their area of control.

From what you've got me thinking about, I've decided to bring in the Jungfreuds as my Nemesis organisation. My group have just finished TGS and so I'm going back date some agenda and stability issues.

The von Jungfreuds will be Powermongers and their agenda is to reclaim Ubersreik. Their agenda advances when: anything which destabilises Ubersreik and shows that it needs the firm hand of a noble lord; the rivals for control of the city experience a public scandal which ruins their chances; the von Jungfreud rule elsewhere appears strong and well organised. Their stability is damaged when: Ubersreik appears strong without noble rule; rivals for control of the city achieve notable successes; the von Jungfreuds experience public scandal or disgrace.

So far, in my campaign the following has happened:

The von Bruners have been publicly disgraced by the discovery of a chaos cult at Grunwald Lodge (+1 Agenda)

Lord Rickard Aschaffenberg has been instrumental in the destruction of the the chaos cult (-1 Stability)

Burgomeister Adler, a von Jungfreud appointee, is back in control of Stromdorf and, along with an inexplicable improvement in the weather, has begun to improve the mercantile prospects of the town (+1 Agenda)

As you can see, the PC's have been unwittingly helping their nemesis (who is not even their nemesis yet) . However, things are going to change. I'm moving WInds of Change to Ubersreik (and lessening the magical content of it) and in the run up to Geihemnisnacht they will end up being drawn into stopping the Broken Wheel (which I might swap for another splinter of the Unblinking Eye) from reeking havoc in the poorer areas of Ubersreik (the bit not on the map). This and other investigations will bring them into Edge of Night and by the end of that adventure there should be one clear rival to the von Jungfreuds (the PC's patron) who will have been helped or hindered by how public things become. Finally (so far), Horror of Hugeldahl should given them a chance to begin working against their nemesis as they will be sent to dig up dirt on the von Jungfreuds.

I'm not sure whether von Jungfreud will be in league with chaos, or whether they just seek to take advantage of others' misfortune.

Anyway, that's what I'll be doing. Thanks for the inspiration to make something of the nobility.

Although it was not stated in Edge of Night (or any official 3rd edition book) yet, the way I described (through NPC) my PCs expect that Jungfreuds are the bad guys.

They did a little research of the nobility at the Red Moon Inn (also known as Sailor's Moon in my campaign (yeah, bad pun, I know) and I (ie various NPCs) just told them the facts, without implying anything. (Jungfreud's losing their status and favor of the emperor, Jungfreuds causing trouble (and almost civil war) with Auverland , Jungfreuds ultimately being involved indirectly with most major noble house (Brunner's through Agnetha Brunner), influence in Stromdorf's, influence with Saponatheims (Olga is the mother of the visiting Saponatheim). Those facts, made the PCs very suspicious towards the Jungfreuds and figured that that they are going to be the bad guys.

So, without me planning to do it this way, I will have to make them the evil masterminds. (following the RPG axiom, if there are three suspects, the one who is truly guilty should be the one that the PCs suspect)

So, after edge of night, it's only logical that Jungfreunds will have to antagonize the patron that will be chosen by the NPCs. (however I was planning on starting TEW adventure after this, taking the NPCs far away from Ubersreik. Perhaps they can return after some time in Ubersreik and came face to face with some disturbing changes (wow, that will sound like the 'Cleansing of Shire').

Overall I am very satifisfied with how my WFRP 3d edition is evolving. I was not expecting to become so politics-oriented. I was planning for a simple 'bloodbath of the day adventure', and up to the end of TGS it was like that. But afterwards, when the PCs returned to Ubersreik it's been very social-themed. I had my reservations, because the players are more Roll-players than Role-Players, but the flavor and theme of WFRP is so engrossing, that I doubt they realise that they had 2 consecutive sessions without any battles at all.

Regarding the major politics...

I think the Jungfreunds are slightly back in favour with the Emperor, this shows in who he appoints to manage Ubersreik.

First he wants to punish the Jungfreunds due to the civil war (allmost anyway), this he does by taking away this city, harsh punishment! But the Emperor has to show strength, if he doesn't it's anarchy.

Then he later wants to help them again, he can't give the city back right away, because that means people think he's a softy, or in their pockets...

So he gives it to a weak noble family. Had he given it to a strong family, it be a slap in Jungfreunds face, because their "opponents" would become stronger, but a minor family poses no real threat.

The way I see this, is that it's the route to giving back Ubersreik to Jungfreunds, because this minor family is unlikely to manage Ubersreik properly (due to all the merchants in the city hating their new ruler, who ever he might be). So after some time of unrest in Ubersreik, the Emperor can decree that Jungfreunds will "help" the minor family manage it, in the end taking over again.

This way both Jungfreunds and Emperor wins. Emperor has shown strength in taking it from Jungfreunds, and wisdom in putting a more competent leader back in the seat. Jungfreunds gets to show that they're Ubersreiks best ruler.

I would never let Jungfreunds be in liege with Chaos, but this doesn't mean their actions wont aid Chaos, or that one in Jungfreunds (the youngest son, who's send of to become a priest of course...!!!) is secretly worshipping Chaos, due to him feeling unfairly treated. Nothing is more fun that a jealous incompetent brother, who thinks he'd do a much better job than his actually very competent brother

You're probably right about keeping the Jungfreuds away from chaos, and just have them taking advantage of events. This keeps the bad guys as someone you can't 'just kill', which for me has always been the strength of WFRP - the bad guys are often protected by the law rather than traps or magic.

Freistadt towns, Free towns or Chartered Towns

I don't know if this has been adressed so I will try to give a short explanation of what it means. In essence all the names above are the same. What it means is that a Free town, have a charter or rights that free them from most of their feudal obligations in return for favours granted by somenone higher in feudal chain.

Nobles hates this, for it often means lost revenues and prestige, and will often work to undermine a chartered town's priviliges.

When Streissen suffered breat riots in the year of Karl-Franz's accession, the Elector Countess Ludmilla of Averland demanded the surrender of the town charter before she would send in th troops.

even though the noble lord have lost most of his authority in a Free town, he is still listed as the ruler in the Imperical charter. Meaning that he still recieve some token hounour of respect among the town council, and often have a seat in their meetings.

Graf Sigismund Von Jungfreud

Count Von Jungfreud resides in the Castle Black Rock, just outside Übersreik. about two years ago Übersreik recieved a free charter from the Count. This action was forced upon the Count by the Emperor, after a feud with Graf Ferdinand Von Wallenstein of Aureswald, had almost escalated into a civil war. Other major Grafs of Reikland include Graf Wilhelm von Saponatheim of Bögenhafen and Graf Heinrich von Falkenhayen of of Stimmigen. Losing the control of the one major trade town in the Upper Reik region doesn't seem to have upset the good Count. From his massive castle, he still marshall and train his troops (Red Axes), and patrols the border as before. The House of Jungfreud still controlls a dozen or so villages, like Buchendorf, Flussberg, Geissbach, Halheim, Hugeldal, Messingen, Stromdorf, and Wurfel, just to mention a few.

Graf is the german word for Count I belive. But in warhammer I think it means something more, according to the lore, a Graf is responsible to muster an army to fight alongside the Emperor. Only Grafs become elected to Grand Counts or elector counts, which means they are in a position to become Emperor, this almost never happen. But serves to give an idea how high on the feudal steping stone a Graf really is.

von Brunner Family, the roten apple?

The Von Brunner family seems to be an FFG design, and must I say a briliant idea from them. I at least find no references to them in BL. The more I read about them in the 3rd edition the more intriqued I become of them. The Von Brunner concept was introduced as early as the introduction scenario Eye for an Eye, and all through the material found in the 3rd edition, the stink of them follows. on at least two occasions daughters of the Von Brunner family have married other nobles, (Aschaffenberg and a von Jungfreud), and in both cases something fishy is going on. I have conceived the idea that the head of Von Brunner family only can concieve daughters (albeit beautiful ones) and tries to marry them into positions.

But I am looking forward to learn more about this interesting minor noble family. is it cursed? how deep into Chaos trafficking are they? love what FFG has done.

Interesting stuff Mal. The only fly in the ointment of the daughters idea is Andreas von Bruner, Lord Heissman's eldest son, from Eye for and Eye. Perhaps Andreas was really a daughter, but the Von Bruner's needed an heir. Which was one of the reasons she/he was packed off to Grunewald...

For me, the Von Bruners will have simply fallen from grace. They were the natural choice to take over the rule of Ubersreik given Lord Heissman's sterling work as a magistrate (Was he the magistrate sent to Auerswald? Possibly.). However, the Von Jungfreuds have spread the scandal about Andreas to discredit them and put them out of the race for Ubersreik. I think I'm going to keep Chaos out of the political battle to reinforce that power is what really corrupts.

As you said, one of the real strengths of the V3 material, and a symptom of the excellent idea to focus on the area around Ubersreik, is that we have recurring characters and families built into the stories and background: Lord Rickard Aschaffenberg, Lord Heissman von Bruner, Graf von Jungfreud, Vern Hendrick, Klaus von Rothstein, etc. It all makes for a very easy campaign with plenty of scope for tangents. If you add in the tie ins to previous material such as the repeated visits to Bogenhafen and to a lesser extent Altdorf (I've decided to hold off Winds of Change to see if later adventures take us there) - then you could engage in the politics of the region for quite some time.

In fact the only time FFG seem to have slipped on this concept has been Journey to Blackfire Pass. It's a good scenario, but would have been perfect of it had been Journey to Karak Azgaraz (which I'm going to use it as).

Hopefully, if the line lasts we'll get a similar treatment of other areas of the Warhammer World: which perhaps the Dwarf book will be springboard to - although I'm hoping it mainly focuses on Karak Azgaraz and more the Reikland border.

Bertolac said:

I think that is sound advice Bertolac. A Count is too important to be just labelled chaos worshippers without having a deeper plot. The scandal (if ever let out) would shock the Empire, I believe in all of Reikland there is only about 5 or 6 Counts or Grafs in total.

Bertolac, thanks for correcting my error, I Think Andreas is a man, a lunatic that was sent away not to embarrass his family. Still I think there is more to the Von Bruner than FFG lets on. he he.

Many jumped to the conclusion that Edge of Night was a bad module. But the more I think of ithe design of it, its rather intriquing. the rules presented shows a new way of playing warhammer in the 3e, the political way without being left too much up to the gm. I am expanding on that, making influence cards for other noble families and even organisations and guilds. In that way Edge of Night is also an expanded rule system. For me EoN was the best thing that could happen to warhammer (so far).

Your Idea of implementing adversary cards (like The powermongers) was an excellent idea, I must urge Hurlac to add this kind of cards to SE, so that we can make our own.

I am in the process of makin the entire Ubersreik region into a sandbox for my players to explore. that with the rules of EoN they can get patronage from nobles, join guilds, or other organisations. Major NPCs will have their own influence tracker, that can lead to secret information and unlocking of quests. So one day my players might enjoy social activites in order to boost their influence tracker with a certain NPC or group, the next they will head into the forest tracking bandits as they learned something vital from the Secret information. well enough rambling, with EoN I see possiblities.

Good gaming

That sounds neat Mal. I'm would be interested in seeing some of that

I also know Emirikol (Jay H.) wants to tinker something similar for "organization" cards or "faction" cards, close to the Nemesis/Patronage system, for Liber Fanatica #8 ( here message #3 ). Even if his idea is for PCs organization, it can be applied to standard NPCs too (guilds, merchants, families, etc.) that are not monstrous groups or Nemesis style.

Was speculating how to include the Jungfreunds in "Winds of Magic" adventure, I've been inspired by this thread, and would like to let the Jungfreunds be a part (directt or indirect) in every major problem my players face. Main thing is to let every clue be vague, never enough to gather evidence, but allways something to make the players suspect the family.

Thought about...:

- The cheese-wheel be product, or imported, by Jungfreunds. This doesn't mean they put the poison there, but...

- Leo served with Graf Sigismund (emblems are split between picturing Regiment sig, Empire Grif, Lordship and which role they served as, gunner, etc...).

Not sure about other clues... point is of course that the clues might be simple coincidences, so not stuff like letters and such.

Spivo said:

Yeah, I like this. I once ran a campaign which was all about following wheels of cheese around the Empire's waterways, trying to trace the source of a Black Lotus smuggling ring.

Whoa, this thread is GOLDEN! Building the political power struggle around the non-connecting scenarios is a brilliant idea and makes even more sense to my group as the leader of my heroes is a minor noble, who fled something he viewed as boring political life. To have the political struggle follow him is brilliant and also gives me an amazing opportunity to have his father ally with the "bad guys" later on.

Oh, Mal I'd be really, really interested in seeing those trackers and how you've organized them when you get them done.

Cwell2101 said:

Ah, thanks. Than at least we are closer to get this card template included in SE. We are currently in the beginning of this project, but allready several documents and maps have been added to my warhammer.google.doc and shared with my group (it also include all the cards that have been released so far). As the campaign will progress more will be uploaded and made available. If interested I can easily add others to the warhammer,google doc. and even create a separeate folder for those that are not part of my group. or just send a link once it contain enough interesting materials.

For the moment we have taken christmas vacation, that gives me plenty of time to write on my project.

Good gaming

Mordjinn said:

sure thing. I will post some examples as I go along (or make it available on google.doc in a represental from). as I told my players this will be an experiment, and evertything will not be ready once we start. But I intend to include both Sigismund Von Jungfreud and Von Bruners in the Edge of Night with a card of their own. We are currently playing the winds of change adventure, after that we will grapple the politics of Ubersreik in EoN.

But for me EoN is just the first part of a bigger picture, in which my players will turn into shakers of society as the months and years pass by (in game time). so rules for Advanced Downtime play is essential for these kinda campaigns. a complete set of these rules will be posted on my warhammer.google.doc shortly. see previous post about the wonders of google doc.

I like your idea of leting your player be swept up in politics, even though he in first place attempted to escape them LOL.

So why do I need a Sandbox style play?

For me, that is how this campaign is turning out to be all about. Events in the Gathering Storm is well connected with the Edge of night module (because in my campain,the High-elf agenda, is connecting it all together), and the region itself is a very intriquing place. I understand now why FFG choose this place to start their new edition. Just look at any map of the region. Its close to the borders of both Athel Loren and Bretonnia, giving it a "frontier" feel, further it has not one but two treacherous passes across the Grey Mountains, which of course contains the enigmatic Karak Azgaraz. Further the region is dotted with ancient ruins (like elven temples), monoliths, and haunted castles like Drachenfels and the Blood keep. Setting a border will be important for a campaing like this, So I plan a map that will be the game map. (yeah I play Fallout New Vegas).

but its a huge undertaking, as I will need dozens of dozens of interesting NPCs with their own motivations and secrets. I will need scores of encounters and interesting sites to visits. I possess all the materials I need for this project (and FFG will provide even more in the future), so all I need is to make them playable and presentable for this style of play.

High Elf agenda
I was not planning on telling about my campaing to third-parties, mostly beacuse it usually it not that interesting. But this forum is about sharing so. a quick summary follows.

You probably know everything about events that leads up to the Gathering Storm, about the temple of Hoeth, the high-elven map stones and the nexus. I added twist, to make the module of TGS relevant to EoN. in the twist the high elf priest succeds in opening a gateway to Ulthuan through this Nexus by harnessing its power. A similar nexus was syntheticialy created near the temple archives of the White tower in Saphery, based on the same principles from the natural nexus in the Ubersreik region. Although this was a prelimenary experiment, communication and even small objects could be sent trough this two-way gateway.
But the Priest of Hoeth where never allowed to finnish his experiments as the high-elves where forced to leave its shores because they were loosing the war against the dwarves. Back home the priest was shocked to learn that the Archive templars had sent an entire army through the gate, in an desperate attempt to turn the tide of the war. the army had not returned, and the Priest of Hoeth had sealed the gate and nexus before leaving, thus trapping the army between two worlds. Before the priest died of grief, he attempted to re-activate the gateway from the synthetical nexus in temple archives. But to no avail. only the original, with its powerful magic could open the gateway. but according to himself he briefly established communication with the lost legion, as the army now was refered to. learning that they somehow was still alive.

Today a new exepdition of high -elves and envoys make their way into the Old world, they are on a secret mission, to rebuild the temple of Hoeth (at Tempest knap hill) and create a permanent gateway to Ulthuan through the nexus. They also want to know what happened to the lost legion, the army that was trapped within the nexus when it was sealed. But you don't simply walk into another country and activate an ancient gateway to retrieve a ghost army without repreccausions.

So my players are hired to make sure that a noble that "honours the old alliance" will rule the land in which the nexus lays dormant and waiting. The Emperor knows of this project and have revoked the charter once given to Ubersreik, to set in motion a politcal avalanche. The empire needs time to tell its citizens and nobles about what will happen if the high elves succeds, and how important it will be not only for the people of Ubersreik but for the entire Empire. The Emperor cannot publicaly show any support, since it may lead to civil war. Having a working portal or gateway that leads straight from Ulthuan into the heartlands of the Empire can have unknown consequences, and the players must be quite discreet for this mission to have any chance to succeed.

When learning about the high risks involved and the political gameof it all, and the secrecy (afterall they did succeed by closing the nexus in TGS,), they sighed "I knew we shouldn't have touched those damned stones, and just headed straight for Nuln, what a mess we are in". I Gleed and knew I was on the right track.

It was done easier to lure them into this, because of Dave who plays an high-elf envoy and was part of the mission from the start (yeah I gave him some inside information about the nexus project) . It will be interesting to see how it turns out as things never is what they appears to be in the world of warhammer.

good gaming and thanks for bearing through this long rant.

Mordjinn said:

I agree, one of the star threads I've seen.

I'm modifying my EoN as well, using (shamelessly) some of the ideas here with modifications of my own.

My idea is still -very- rough, but here it is for perusal and critique:

Von Saponatheim intends to frame Aschaffenburg and Holzenaur as cultists in order to discredit them and secure his seat in Ubersreik. To this end, he hires some mercenaries to plant damning evidence inside the Holzenaur manor using the ball as a distraction. This, combined with the planting of the tarot card (which I plan to have done by someone else... still deciding who is the best to get their hands dirty), should cast enough suspicion that by the time the charges are dismissed, Von Saponatheim will have been given the nod.

The mercenaries that are hired are effective and brutal, but not particularly bright. They end up inquiring around about cultist paraphenalia with some of the seedier characters in the black market, and mentioning a ball, which ends up reaching the ears of Rasknitt (In my game the ball is -not- common knowledge, but there are some rumors). He has the mercenaries killed on the way to the ball by his hired Clan Eshin assassin, and has his gutter-runners and the Assassin disguise themselves as the Mercs for the ball.

The Skaven plots still occur mainly as written, though I make it much harder to follow the skaven in the initial attempts in order to keep the players at the ball to witness more of the events. The later events get easier by contrast, as the Skaven get more desperate to succeed.

The end is up in the air, and I'm still deciding on it. So far I plan for the Skaven Assassin to kill Von Saponatheim, as their aim is to destabilize Ubersreik, and they see him as the most Skaven-like, and thus the most dangerous threat. If mutations occur, then it is likely the watch will be called in. Whichever individual the PCs are currently aligned with is not amongst those who are killed for mutations, and that individual wins the throne in Ubersreik. I do plan to blatantly steal from Monkeylite and have them gain a minor mutation, however... it will be interesting to see how the PCs deal with that one, especially if the situation devolves into more severe mutation or corruption.

Like I say, I'm still working on it. Have a few pages of my notepad filled up with scrawl, crossed-out lines and arrows connecting plot bubbles. It's a mess.

oh I like your idea, how you smoothly makes the skaven plot integrate with your Von saponatheim plot. so in away he is guilty bringing them into the plot. nice touch.

I haven't quite decided how important the skaven will be in this expanded plot I'm planning. At first I thought they would only serve as villians in EoN, and nothing more. But I have been exploring the idea of making them major antagonists to the overall plot. Maybe when the meteoritt was called down, by Schulzman in the end of TGS it brought with it lodes of warpstone. Warpstone that now lays at the bottom of the river, drawing the attention of even more skaven. In that way the high-elves and players will have more troubles and problems than that they bargained for.

I also plan on creating a vampire keep hidden somewhere in Lady Grey pass, it's history will be closely connected to von Jungfreuds. The keep is said to be in ruins as Sigismund's grand-grand father razed it to the ground almost 100 years ago. Its called Fanghorn (yeah not very original, so I'm open for suggestions). I plan on creating a module arround that keep and it's history, as a part of my campaign.

Good gaming and keep up the excellent brainstorming.

Darrett said:

I will ****** the idea, but make it Jungfreunds instead. The Jungfreunds wants to either kill the 3 nobles, or disrupt the ball, so the Emperor will think Jungfreunds is after all most suited to rule Ubersreik.

The skaven intercepted the plan, and the letter never reaches the mercenaries/assasins, so when the players search their sewer cave, they find the letter.

Very sketchy, but main thing is I want Jungfreunds to be a main antagonist in my campaign, and make it seem to the players that they're working for/with dark forces, when in fact they're just greedy nobles caught in bigger things than they can handle.

Spivo said:

Sounds like a plan. I'm using the Jungfreuds as well now that I've had time to think about it, but in a different way. When the Jungfreuds lost Ubersreik, the Emperor had planned to allow it to remain a free city, directly under rulership of Altdorf. The Jungfreuds were, of course, opposed to the idea, so they began surreptitiously destabilizing the city by leaning on the various guilds with which they had influence, and sending in agitators with the aim of ensuring a lack of unity within the town council. The Emperor was forced to reconsider his position and decided he should reinstate a leige-lord over the city in order to counter the growing threats in the area, as from his position it appeared that the council was able only to bicker and squabble. The Jungfreuds placed their support behind the Von Bruners, as the Von Bruners are an arm of their own family and easily swayed in the direction the Jungfreuds would like.

The events of EfaE threatened this by removing the Von Bruners from contention, and so the Jungfreuds have had to put Von Saponatheim forth as their candidate of choice, giving him support behind the scenes, confident that Olga Von Saponatheim will see that her son follows their best interests.

So now I'm condiering how I want to make this information present itself without being too damning for the Jungfreuds. Von Saponatheim is going to be (very likely) killed by the disguised Skaven Assassin when he approaches him (still believing he's a mercenary) to berate him for the poor job he's done and all the chaos he's caused, so he can be directly implicated. The Jungfreuds should be seen more as the power behind Von Saponatheim, being untouchable due to their position, but obviously still behind the situation without providing the players with any way to directly oppose them.

If we just keep posting back and forth we're likely to end up with something great; our players won't know what hit them.

Mal Reynolds said:

I really need to get EoN to have a better understanding on the prominent noble families of Reikland. Does someone or some publication have a drawn family trees of the families? Would be very helpful. To add to the soup I have two minor noble familiesof my own: Von Faust (one of my heroe's family) and arch villain of Von Faust's, Von Wöller (that one came from the 1st edition Warhammer, where one of the player characters, a short and stocky lamb loving ranger called Otto Wöller became the arch enemy of our group. Now the Wöller's make an appearance in 3rd edition as minor nobles ).

Mal. Since the Warhammer names have an germanic origin you might want to name the castle Hauerburg (Fangcastle), Hauerspitze (Fanghorn/Fangtop) or Hauerberg (Fangmountain). Just an idea as Fanghorn reminded me a lot of Fangorn forest...