Ok, so my friends I are just recently started a Deathwatch campaign. We have been eagerly awaiting this book for many months and could not wait for its release. Now that it is here though I have a dilemma.

I finally settled on my class and decided to diverge from my usual and try out the Techmarine. I have ever been fond of them on table top or the in the lore really, but thought it would be neat to be as tough as he has the potential of being. However I noticed something concerning his starting servo-arm and eventually(ultimately) the full servo-harness. You see it details that you may attack with the arm as a reaction, but beside that doesn't provide any further detail. Also another tidbit comes under the Full servo-harness entry wherein it says that it if the Techmarine has a multiple attack talent then you can basically do mean things with your mecandendrite limbs. In other words use them in combination with whatever you have in hand. So for instance attacking with both servo arms and then shooting a bolter in your hands or whatever the case may be. To my dismay though I found that the Techmarine has no such talents available to him through his tree, the chapter trees, SM tree or Deathwatch trees so it makes me wonder how this is suppose to work. It is especially infuriating considering the full servo-harness is "Famed" rated in regards to Renown.

So my question is this, my friend and I were looking through the rules, piecing together as much as we could. What we saw as a possibility is that one may make a "Multiple attack action" if A. has Lightning attack, B. Swift Attack or...(and this is our possible hope) if you are wielding a weapon in you off-hand see two weapon fighting. In short since a Techmarine always has at least one servo-arm (a Mechandendrite), which is stated as being an off-hand weapon with no penatlties is the Techmarine able to make the multiple attack action in this way as a de facto two weapons situation?

Let me know what you all think...btw if this isn't a possible resolution then the full harness is totally not worth it. Any ways...thanks all for reading.

Hannibal

Hannibal_805 said:

Good question. Yes, I would see it that way. Reason: Swift/Lightning Attack are more like making multiple attacks with one arm, two weapon situation should apply here instead.

Alex

I can't comment on specific rules since I don't have the book with me at the moment, but as for gaining Swift/Lightning Attack talents, they would have to be purchased as an elite advance. Its my understanding they are not at all available to the techmarine.

With the recent clarification by Ross Watson of FFG, it has been stated that all space marines can attack with two weapons but with a -20 penalty to both attacks. So in the case of the Techmarine i would say you could fire your bolter as well as nob someone next to you with your servo arm. Or alternatively you could wield a chainsword and hit the same guy twice.

To lessen the penalties you would need to buy Two Weapon Wielder (melee) as an elite advance which would the penalties to -10, however if you wanted to fire a bolter and nob someone you would need both Two Weapon Wielder (melee & ballistic) talents.

Hey guys, thanks for the responses.

To clarify the reason I'm kinda stumped on this is because as I said above "To my dismay though I found that the Techmarine has no such talents available to him through his tree, the chapter trees, SM tree or Deathwatch trees so it makes me wonder how this is suppose to work." In short there are no lightning, swift attacks talents nor two weapon wielder available to him at least as far as I can tell. Making the servo-arm and to a greater extent the full harness much less useful.

sgtgrarm said it all basically.

Gaining the relevant talents to make the servo arm/harness a melee capable option means you have to take elite advances, which are subject to GM approval.

Lucrosium Malice said:

I don't think so though. You get to attack -with 20 to both attacks instead of -10. Is that the difference between viable or not? Also you can sacrifice your reaction for another attack. Against hordes you can't dodge/parry anyway. So you can unleash 3 attacks, two with -20, and one with +0.

Or you can get a Storm Shield at higher ranks and ditch the parrying altogether on occasion.

It ain't that bad .

Alex

ak-73 said:

Its freaking scary to me honestly. Early on in your career, its okay, you have to work hard towards getting good with it, but the increased damage it does from strength, it high penetration value and base damage. I have a meta-gamer that plays in our group. He's already got it all planned out. Its frightening to think that he will be better in hand to hand than my assault marine after we get some experience.

Lucrosium Malice said:

Remember, Elite Advances are GM's option. The GM can charge whatever he wants for them. That can help.

Ah, Elite Advances...just looked those up. I know understand what I was missing, hehe. Again thanks for all the responses, I was not aware that all space marines could attack with two weapons at a -20.

Hannibal_805 said:

I know, it is a little ambiguous in the book - it took a response from Ross Watson to actually clarify it.

I thought the ambidextrous trait that all space marines have made those attacks into -10 per attack... do I not understand the purpose of the trait?

Hadriel said:

No talent: -20/-40

Ambidextrous gives +20 to the off-hand, Two Weapon Wielder gives +10 to both hands. So you have -10/-10 only if you have both talents.

Alex

And if you want to dual-wield pistols, take the 'Gunslinger' talent - it lessens the penalty by another 10 so it'll be 0/0.

There really needs to be a melee counterpart to Gunslinger to allow assault specialists to get their WS-based two weapon attacks down to -0/-0.

I may house rule that into my campaign, just need to come up with a snappy name for the Talent.

that does seem really unfair to melee specialists..... I wonder why that is? Though in general the use of two weapons seems pretty underpowered when you consider that after spending all those experience points to make your attacks viable you never get more that one extra attack out of it. Kind of makes the storm shield more appealing when you can focus on a higher value melee item for the other hand.

not to mention the benefit of all that experience that can be spent on characteristic upgrades and the like to increase the main hand attacks effectiveness.

Edsel62 said:

Don't forget that Swift/Lightning attack only works for melee attacks. Melee marines can get the highest number of attacks (5 in total unless I'm mistaken, 3 from Lightning attack, 1 from two weapon wielding and 1 from Furious assault/tech-marine servoarm). Also note that Gunslinger only works for pistols. Of course, ranged combat has the autofire capability so all in all I think it's fairly balanced (possibly excepting the heavy bolter, but I'm fine with that in any case).

gruntl said:

Can't combine All-Out Attack (prerequisite for Furious Assault) with Multiple Attack Action though.

Alex

ak-73 said:

Correct; Furious Assault does not combine with Swift / Lightning Attack due to both requiring different full-actions to use. However, with the Preternatural Speed talent (page 124) you may use Swift / Lightning Attack as a half action, and also use them as part of a Charge action. You still wouldn't be able to combine them with Furious Assault , but you shouldn't have to.

-=Brother Praetus=-