Hi Folks,

ok, this may not happen... but is there any rule to make Parry a bit less mighty?

Can Parry be used against any Melee Attack(ok except hordes)?

Or is it just against armed enemys?

The example from the subject means, that accourding to the rules, a charakter might be able to parry even Titan attacks.

thx

B3stie

If you are considering letting a player, or a player wants to attempt to parry a Warlord Titan you need to seriously rethink the level of crazy of yourself and your players, no offense.

Be reasonable and think about things. There is cool, there is cinematic (that could never happen but I'll go with it), and then there is unreasonable on so many levels it is ridiculous. Just because the rules don't say you cannot do something, doesn't mean you can.

From a game standpoint there is a big issue of mass to think about in regards to the Titan CCW and a chainsword and there is also the issue of why and how a Titan is targeting a single space marine with a CCW. How would a SM parry a small building being hurled at them?

To answer the basic question: Yes, any melee attack can be parried. Remember, without Wall of Steel you only get one reaction, either parry or dodge, a turn. So multiple attacks from enemies or multiple enemies will not be able to be parried.

ItsUncertainWho said:

I think you misread the intention of the OP. I think he was using the example to demonstrate that Parry knows no limitations RAW when it possibly should have some. If A Juggernaut of Khorne charges a PC, that is a close combat attack and by the rules it can be parried then. If a Thunderwolf tries to byte an Acoylte, the Acoylte can try to parry with his sword (Unbalanced even gives a bonus).

Alex

ak-73 said:

Yeah, I was editing when you posted. Added the last bit.

ItsUncertainWho said:

It doesn't make too much sense for some people though. If a huge beats tries to bite you or tries to hit you with a claw, you should dodge, not try to use your sword for parry.

Alex

I think you misread the intention of the OP. I think he was using the example to demonstrate that Parry knows no limitations RAW when it possibly should have some.

Uh, no.

There is a contradiction in itself.

By RAW there does not exist any Titan yet.

The starter of the threat mentions by himself: "Hordes cannot be parried!"

So what we know by RAW so far is that game designers have the option for further minions to say " The X's attack cannot be parried!" where X is any enemy we will see.

Even the Space Marine's attack cannot be parried if he has the right talent and spends a fate point.

Cheers,

TechVoid.

ak-73 said:

You could always go with a house rule for large creatures.

Addendum to Parry: Any melee attack made by a creature two size categories larger than you cannot be parried.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Which would already fit within the rules so far. The least horde has a size of massive (+30) which is two times larger than a space marine (hulking, +10).

Cheers,

TechVoid.

I might disagree with your example. A thunderwolf isn't that big and I'd be quite content to let it see if it's teeth are better than a chainswords. But a Carnifex claw, now that's un-parriable.

As a rule of thumb you can't parry anything larger than yourself.

Thinking about it from a TT point of view, it would probably be monsterous creatures that are unparryable, but then that would include Hive Tyrants and Demon Princes and they already have stats for those and both are parriable apparently.

No,

I would not go that far to say "Bigger than you."

I mean from RAW I recall two aspects where a melee attack cannot be parried. First the melee attack from a horde and second a special talent where you have to spend a fate point.

So I simply would accept that there are some special circumstances where an incoming melee attack cannot be parried. Sometims it is the enormous momentum, sometimes the speed, maybe the attack is out of phase, etc.

There can be a lot of explanations fitting within the WH40k universe.

I think it should be simply stated in the creatures description.

Despite of that I can also just advice some common sense. I mean to think about a space marine facing a titan in melee ... is somehow absurd. Although for WH40k standards.

Cheers,

TechVoid

ak-73 said:

Now, as far as I can remember 40k rpg doesn't have rules for this (aside from unarmed attacks being god awful at actually hurting things), so... well, yeah a bit of a pointless comment, and yes, there might be some things so big that they shouldn't really be parried (Titans... though as someone said, why is the titan able to attack the player in Close Combat anyway. They would just walk over the player, or shoot them... Titan close combat weapons are for fighting other titans, not people). However you always have GM fiat when appropriate, and even then, remember 40k is quite cinematic. As much as parrying a Bloodthirster three times taller than you makes no rational sense ("Surely he would just sweep the sword away or break it in his swing and it would make no difference?") it makes 40k sense to have a heroic dude taking out the monstrosity from hell with his sword.

I would allow that in Deathwatch but not in Dark Heresy (where you plays squishie dudes who quite rightly **** themselves when faced by Greater Daemons). However, I might allow it even in Dark Heresy if I think the character truely believes he can and believes he has (or actually does have) the Emperor's protection or whatever. Daemons are manafestations of warp beings in realspace, and the warp is shaped by emotion and belief. Daemons are meant to get their form from the worst nightmares of sentient beings... so in my mind a sufficiently faithful (or mad) character who truely believes they can take on a Greater Daemon tries to do so at the appropriate (probably dramatic) moment, they will be able to parry it.

Still probably wouldn't last long though.

borithan said:

I'm at work and can't quote page numbers (and in fact, in DW it might not be included as they have unarmed specialisations as standard) but in DH an unarmed attack against an armed opponant suffers a -20 to Ws and also does fek all damage, so it's really not advised.

I, for the most part, agree with what borithan said...it's up to the GM to decide what works and what doesn't. It's one of the reasons why I got into RP so much is that the GM can do literally ANYTHING in his world. Yes, there is a rulebook but that is there for guidance more than concrete rules that must be followed.

If Space Marines are fighting a Titan, and it decides that squishing one of those little armored bugs on the ground is the best tactical option (or heck for a Khornate Titan just because that would make the bug an even bigger bloody mess) then the GM has to decide what the targeted player is allowed to do. In my opinion I think a Space Marine wouldn't be allowed to Parry because of the sheer mass vs mass. However, I would let something like this ride:

"As the Titans Power Fist lands on the ground, the Black Templar jumps aside at the last moment and with incredible agility he mounts the arm and proceeds to run down to the shoulder. After being almost knocked off again due to a sudden lurch he makes his way to the neck where he proceeds to place 3 Krak grenades. After they detonate there is a hole large enough for him to access the inside of the Titan, and proceeds to slaughter its command personnel."

I know a bit overdramatic, but it would only occur IF the player thought to jump on the arm. In any case it would be more of a Dodge situation. Otherwise it would look more like this......

"The Black Templar, steeled in his Faith stands firm as the Titan's Power Fist hurtles at him. He raises his sword with a cry for the Emperor on his lips....and is crushed to a gory pulp (after taking 254 dmg)."

In the Emperor Protects, there is a monster (basically a T-Rex) whose bite attack can not be parried. So you could use that as reference.

This topic made me laugh, if your the GM and your player tries to parry a titan attack you let him/her succeed with the unfortunate side effect of becoming a permanent part of the landscape.....

If they want to argue RAW tell them to go buy a brain that works.

ak-73 said:

actually I would say that if you parry a huge beasts claw attack it would no longer have a claw...

one thing you have to remember is that this rules system is definitely old school 80's in its feel (and the looseness/wiggleroom in its rules). it's not meant to be a minis game masquerading as a RPG like d&d 3/3.5/pathfinder (which i thoroughly enjoy) and 4.0/4.5 (meh). i personally find it strange that it is just as easy to parry a strike from an expert swordsmen who makes a one in a lifetime strike (rolling a 1 with a WP100+ with mods) as it is to block a guardsmen trying to gut you with his bayonet and barely hitting (rolling a 34 and needing a 35)... but those are the rules (and why i use dodges and parries to reduce attack DoS instead of just a blanket negation). they're not meant to be tested in the extremes and that's assuming the game has been properly edited (which it hasn't). add to that rules for unit types that aren't officially introduced (you can technically play utterly godzilla sized creatures but they play the same as being attacked by kitten sized creatures) and you've got territory where its simply better to use common sense and a fair dose of GM hand-wave-ium to make the encounter work. personally, i'd classify a melee attack by a titan as an area effect weapon and use the rules for dodging them instead. like it was said earlier, a titan melee is more akin to a building thrown at you than a proper sword strike.

Sanguinary Priest said:

As a side-note, while I have never played 4.x I don't like the D&D rules too much in general and never have. While playing Baldur's Gate (AD&D) was fun the rules behind NWN were not my cup of tea. In my humble opinion D&D lives mostly off its brand.

Alex

Also, you have to take into account what you are imagining when you picture a 'parry'. Most of the attacks by the larger creatures that were mentioned above would be ludicrous if parried in the classic 'locked blade to blade' style parry, but to simbple deflect a fast havy blow requires alot less strength and is alot less damaging to the parrying weapon....

Sanguinary Priest said:

Depends on how you think of it, but it can make sense.

You could say that it's not, because the experienced swordsman (with multiple attacks) uses his skill to simply capitalise on the slightest opening and overwhelms your ability to defend (because you only have one parry).

Alternatively, if the swordsman uses his experience and skill to land a blow that is technically difficult to parry/void, then it's still not, because that is reflected in the rules-set by making a feint attack, and beating you on the roll, making the blow itself impossible to parry/void.

As to the parrying Titans... if you think of a 'parry' in the conventional blade-on-blade sense, then it does defy logic, but if you think of 'parry' as a defensive technique used by an experienced close quarters fighter, then that can include voiding the blow or otherwise evading it.

I can fully see me having this conversation with one of my players:

'I don't need to as strong, i just need to apply force in correct way to turn aside the attack...'

'JUST ROLL TO DODGE THE TITANS FOOT FOR CHRISTS SAKE!'

Siranui said:

That interpretation has too much overlap with Dodge.

Alex

ak-73 said:

I agree, personally I would say make titans behave more like a piece of scenery that moves, noones gonna try to parry a falling rock, why should a lump of metal be any different,

or if you want to avoid any further ridiculous requests like that let them parry, and then reveal that because a titans foot is an ancient relic it possesses the relic ability to destroy their weapon, and still inflicts damage

Narkasis Broon said:

Face Eater said:

+1 to both of these

ak-73 said:

In the case of a Titan's foot, then yes; I'd agree and demand a dodge roll, or for the character to reduce their height permanently by 7'. But for things which are massive or massively strong in a less extreme sense, I'd certainly allow a 'parry' to include voids. Parrying is an extension of Weapon Skill, and Weapon Skill is skill in melee, which encompasses such things as deflecting attacks by means other than simply holding up a sword so the foe's goes 'clang' off it by -for example- being able to expertly judge their reach and moving either inside or outside of it.

Otherwise we reach a situation where the party tool up with terminator armour to deal with the demon prince with his massive warhammer, and regardless of their close combat prowess, are physically unable to defend against it in any way in melee because they can't dodge in Termie armour and can't parry a 300lb warhammer. YMMV.