I was lurking the forums and google and I can't seem to find a good answer. There is a rule that states that you can not use the same half-action twice in the same turn. For psychic powers, does this count at using a psychic power or the power itself? I know that a librarian can't cast smite twice, but could they cast war cry then cast smite?

Thank you for your help.

vanxidomor said:

It goes for the Focus Power Action.

Alex

ak-73 said:

To expand ak-073's answer:

All psychic powers are used under the Focus Power Action. This is also considered the same as an attack action.

Ah, good to know. Thanks!

ItsUncertainWho said:

I must have missed that second part. Could you refer to the actual rule?

decPL said:

I don't think it's spelled out in the book, as the powers are missing subtypes (even though it's refered in other parts of the book), but clarified in the FAQ/Errata thread.

It is clarified that focus power is the attack subtype, yes.

But I still want to hear where it states that actions of the same subtype cannot be used in the same turn. On page 236, for half actions its stated that the same action cannot be performed twice (so you can't do standard attack twice). Later on, it states that subtypes are used in special situations to determine what types of actions can be used. It does not state that subtypes limit the possible actions chosen after the first half attack is made. So if there is an errata/faq/other page that disscusses this mechanic...

I would allow it since he is doing 2 seperate powers, maybe at an increase to threshold(I use old DH rules for my Psker Powers since that is how I learned them and played them) or difficulty.

According to the rules: would it be also possible to fire a rocket launcher( half action ) and cast smite ( half action)?

In the rule i only found that you cannot do the same action twice a turn!

B3stie said:

No

See the above posts

or to spell it out:

Firing any weapon is an attack action.

Using Focus Power to cast any power is also an attack action.

You cannot perform two of the same types of actions in a round.

Firing a rocket launcher and casting smite are considered the same action.

I don't want to sound too rude, but once again, where is it clarified that subtype=action type? My reading is that standard attack, and focus power are two different action types, but share the attack subtype (which exists purely to describe what actions are valid during special aituations).

I don't have my book available to check but this is the excerpt from the DH errata on the matter. I would carry over without hesitation. I thought it was also mentioned in the Errata thread, but I could be mistaken.

The first paragraph in the Using Psychic Powers
section starting on page 161 should include the
addition: “Making a Focus Power Action is the psychic
equivalent of a Standard Attack Action, and counts as such
for purposes of determining what else a psyker can do in a
round. Therefore, a psyker who uses a Half Action power
cannot make another Half Action Standard Attack on the
same round. A Psyker may manifest only one ability per
Round with the exception of the Resist Possession power.
A Psyker is required to roll at least one die to manifest an
ability.”

The idea of not carrying this over is fairly absurd IMO.

alright, I accept that. Still though, that just means focus power = standard attack, not tbat subtypes are involved, or used to determine available actions. Also, I know I've seen the same discussion becore, but where do force weapons fit in all of this? They allow a focus power test, so are they just an exception to the rule?

Force weapons allow the focus power test as part of (concurrent with) the attack with the weapon. An exception to the rule.

I think the logic is that you are focusing the warp through the weapon instead into a specific effect. So it doesn't take the same amount of time.

ItsUncertainWho said:

I in turn don't have my DH book with me, but weren't DH rules a bit different, actually stating that you cannot make 2 attacks in a single round, while no such rule is in DW?

My apologies if it's just my brain melting .

decPL said:

There is actually - the rulebook states that you can't take the same Half-Action twice

I would probably just play this by ear, I know that people love to have concrete rules so that they can stifle any argument but it seems absurd that force dome is considered an attack to me.

I think part of the reason you can't take the same action twice is to prevent rate of fire issues. If a gun is only single shot, then it can only fire once per turn. Consider suspensors (fire full auto as half action). If you could do two full auto actions, the gun suddenly has twice the RoF, from a mod that generally only affects the weight (yes, bolter drill exists, but it doesn't double RoF).

The same could possibly be true with the mind, possibly being only capable of manifesting a psychic power once per turn.

Overall, the one action type per turn rule is pretty fair, I see no reason to change it (direct application of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"). Still though, I would say subtype has nothing to do with it.

Although, does this mean if a librarian gets suspensors, he can fire a heavy bolter full auto (not a standard attack, which is what focus power counts as), and perform a smite? Us GMs gotta play devil's advocate. This almost makes a case for basing subtype as the way to limit what actions can be taken, but subtype can vary by power (according to how the subtype for psychic power is stated), which could mean that they could force shield while firing in full auto.

Could it be considered that full auto "inherits" from standard attack (applying a bit of my computer science background here)?

KommissarK said:

The focus power for the smite and the half action attack, even full auto with a heavy bolter equipped with suspensors, would count as the same TYPE and therefore couldn't be allowed.

ItsUncertainWho said:

While I agree with implementing this as a house rule, I'm not entirely sure this is RAW.

As i read the RAW it works like this:

There are four types of actions (p. 236) you can make in a turn. Full, Half, Reaction and Free.
You can take 1 Full action or 2 (different) Half actions and 1 Reaction each turn (and one or more Free actions at GMs aproval).

There are a bunch of subtypes that "... don't do anything in of themselves, but they are used to clarify what a character is and is not allowed to do in a variety of special cicumstances."
For example:

• You can't charge if you can't move since that Full action ( type ) have the Movement subtype .
• You can't use the Grapple action (Half or Full type) if you're not in Melee (subtype) range
• You can't use the Aim action (Half or Full type) if you can't concentrate (Concentration subtype)
• And you obviously can't use any action that has the Attack subtype if you don't have a target to use it on!

A Standard Attack action is of the Half-action type with the Attack and Melee or Ranged subtypes (table 8-1 on p. 237)
This means that you can use this action once in a round, on an opponent that are within your weapons striking range.

In the same round you can use the Knock-Down action (a different Half action) if you have a target (Attack subtype) that is within melee range.

And you can also, in the same round , use the Focus Power action to use Long-Range Telepathy, since it is a Free action.

Therefore a Librarian is absolutelly able to Smite a foe while shooting another, but he can't use psychic powers at all while shooting anything on full auto since that's a Full action. He can't even sustain psychic powers since that requires a Half action.

I hope that I've been able to clear this up a bit.

I have to disagree.

Attack actions can be a Full or Half round.
These include firing a weapon on single, semi or full auto, melee (half and full round) attacks, and Focus Power actions.

You cannot use more than one of these types of actions in a round.

A Psyker can sustain and shoot, as sustaining is not a focus power action, but he cannot activate a power and shoot since Focus Power is equivalent to an attack action.

Long Range Telepathy, being a free action, is still a focus power test which counts as an attack action. This leaves the Psyker with the ability to make a full round move or other skill test but no further attack actions that round.

Ah, but my point was with the use of suspensors, which allow full auto to be a half round action. All it takes is req and renown. And a player evil enough to try it. Although I don't think it breaks the game too much.

Edit:

The DH erra.ta just says that psychic power = standard attack. But full auto != standard attack. When determining valid actions after first half action, subtype is not used, but rather the specific action, ref the subtype paragraph (it is used in special situations). Since full auto is not a standard attack, a librarian, with suspensors, could full auto and smite. Stupid, but fitting to RAW.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Any chance to quote any Deathwatch rule behind that or refer to the specific page? Not that I'm saying it doesn't make sense, I'm just wondering if it's RAW.

decPL said:

Can't remember what page, I may have stated it earlier, but it is stated in the DW core book that a specific action may be performed only once per turn (this is also in DH/RT).

P. 9 of the dark heresy errata does in fact state that the focus power action is equivalent to the standard attack action for the purpose of which actions are allowed (after the first half action in a turn).

DH/RT/DW are, for the most part, equal across all rules (or rather, it is fair to think that something like this should apply in DW as well).

Where Uncertain and I disagree, is on how specific "Standard attack" is in this case. I read it as specifically meaning the "Standard attack" half action. He appears to be reading it as any "half action attack." I'm not sure where/how he arrives at this different point of view (otherwise, it wouldn't be a disagreement). Of course, this does mean that my reading is inconsistent with the rules as intended (why allow a more "advanced" attack while disallowing the simpler type?), but my argument is based purely in the RAW. Or rather, I would allow a player to do it if they formulated the argument, purely because I find it amusing, and not too unbalanced. And even if it is, that can be fixed by having the enemies change their priority target to the really scary looking guy.

Besides, the best way to prevent this is to force the librarian to choose between the force weapon, or a heavy bolter. Given that the force weapon lends itself to spectacular damage output in a single hit (which is generally more helpful than a heavy bolter in fights with the things you actually need to worry about), if they're logical, they will pick the force weapon every time.