I'm thinking more in terms of theorycraft for these objections. Like I said, lack of a system to hold back such munchkinism is fine for groups where it's not going to be a problem but that doesn't make it a system.

Hmmm ... I still have to agree with Lucius that I prefer a class-less/level-less system. But ... I do agree that it places an extraordinary burden on the GM, to fairly (balance-wise) adjudicate all advances taken. I am torn ... but I still like the flexibility of the system(s) I have come to love. I don't know ... perhaps I am - after all - lucky in my current group of players. While they WILL power-game - if I let them - they are singularly dedicated to interesting characters, and their backstories. So for newer GM's, and younger players (or those GM's who are not intimately familiar with their current group of players), I can see the need for the structure of a class/level-based system. I still don't like or prefer it ... but I can see the need for it.

*sighs*

Gamer-life sucks, sometimes.

Not just for new GMs or groups. My current group has been together for 15+ years (depending on the member) and while they are good (they used to be excellent, some still are) rpers, (and half of them GMs themselves) they'll still look for opportunities and loopholes in the systems. The problem is, though they enjoy good rp and good story, they also have a noticeable "gamist" streak about them ... especially in recent years. (I have a whole slew of things to blame for that ... note I don't believe most rpers can be divided into simple categories, most possess elements of all) This means, of course, that they see some elements of the game as something they need to "beat" ... and one of those can be character creation. Hell, the two currently best rpers in my group are admitted power gamers as well ... despite common assumptions, the two can coexist.

As for having to deal with difficult groups ... it does have the benefit of making you a stronger, if more paranoid, GM. Because I've seen most player tricks by now I am much more prepared and capable when dealing with them.

In general I preffer systems without classes and levels, where you simply learn the skills you want to learn. In my experience it creates far more interesting characters in the end. Class-systems have a tendency to create steriotypes imo.

That said i am not sure DH really benefits from the removal of classes. A system should be built ground up for this, to ensure that it does not promote bland "a little bit of everything" characters which are all the same. But with some rewrite, some aditional prerequisites and so on, I think it could be done.

One way to handle characteristics advances is to increase the overall cost depending on how many you have. The first advance is normal price, the second +50xp, the third +100xp. You can spread as wide as you like, but the more you spread the more expencive each advance becomes.

A classless system can work well in an RPG, Shadowrun being a shining example. That said, the amount of modification needed to overhaul the DH system to a classless one seems like a huge amount of work for overall little gain. For example, Talents: some are better than others, but more so if paired with OTHER talents, etc. Other have preqs, what do you do if someone wants a talent that they can't qualify for? So you need to make a snap judgement on whether or not a talent or skill fits within both the game balance and background without any defined bounds.

For me, if a player wants something, they tell me and explain how it fits their character and the background. Then they tell me how much extra XP they're willing to spend on this elite advance. Since I know their career path, I have a good idea of what kinds of skills/talents they'll have to pick from in the future, and make a decision that won't hamstring them or overpower them down the road.

Galth said:

Ah Shadowrun, that takes me back, and as you said after a short while of playing you could knock up a perfect little character for almost any archetype. One thing that Shadowrun, and say Call of Cthulu had, were that they were pretty much skills and stats for exp progression AND more importantly they were very close to real world world settings.

On the other hand, SLA should have been very similiar but I never saw anyone come up with good characters in that, it was pretty much just playing to the racial archetypes (and I tried I really did).

The 40K background is the same in that it's far removed, which for people without intimate knowledge of the background makes it horrible difficult.

The thing is that the talants don't progress like skills, one talant can completely change your characters power level.

So in summary, it's possible with a group that's experienced, familiar with the system and actually want to work together but it's going to be hard work on the GM and I can't suggest that it's the way to go unless you fulfill the criteria perfectly.

Agreed with Face Eater.

In terms of advances and backstory, I kind of like the way Elite Advances work for players to do something non-standard. However given the use of percentile rolls, as a way of rewarding backstory and or encouraging character development why not have people preform ingame objectives somehow related to a skill though which they earn a small bonus of rolls to of like 5% which may stack with skill mastery and the like?

In regards to class and advancement, it is a useful tool but it is frustrating due to the wait involved say building up to a level, nothing like several sessions with no change in a character's outlook aside from a continuation of the narrative. To this end I think DH delivers fairly well as a system with the advances for what occurs between ranks, showing that your character is advancing almost continually.

To the OP, in terms of a systematic approach might I suggest allowing something akin to a multiclassing option. You can go off the path by say mixing scum and guardsmen, but in order to gain the higher rank aspects of say scum you need to have spent X amount of exp on the scum path to access each rank of Scum abilities.

To illustrate, we have a rank 4 guardsman at 3500 exp who just earned somehow 800 exp, as it makes sense for the character to do so he would like to gain one of the scum abilities at rank 3. Rather than buy it directly to show his dedication to the path he has to for instance spend 400 exp in each rank of scum to gain advancement to the next rank's abilities. So our player plops down 400 in various rank 1 scum abilities, to pave the way for rank 2 abilities which he also plops down 400 exp thus opening the possability next time he gains exp of taking said desired rank 3 scum ability.

In order to make the above work I suggest a primary class like guardsmen, pysker or what have you, and combine it with another class to serve as a secondary thus blending character paths. Maybe as exp is granted by the time your ready to advance a rank, say having earned the first 1000 exp, 200 of it must be invested in the other path's abilities.

This of course still leaves you vulnerable to power builders trying to cherry pick what abilities they would prefer to gain in advancements; however it would prevent any attempt to be a rank 5 cleric trying to scoop up some powerful rank 5 advance from another path and thus cheat the system, without time and effort being spent within the path.

Hi, have you checked Peacekeeper_b's submission to Dark Reign?

I think it is pretty good, and might be relevant for this topic!

darkreign40k.com/drjoomla/index.php/component/docman/doc_download/272-alternate-character-generation-and-rank-system-backgrounds-peacekeeperb

His idea about paying to access a rank and thereby be allowed to buy the advances it contains is rather interesting.

Im in line with Lucius T and Sister Cats ideas on it. Ive been a GM for ( as always about 15yrs now on a host of RPG games too numerous to list as well as a player for them all first. Class/level restricted games produce cookie cutter charcters ( unless you have a skilled player to flesh them out) but free-form style systems ( as long as they give mind to some form of heirarchy of skill sets ( IE. needing to take the basic skill before you can take a more advanced form of that skill set to "build" onto the skill set as a whole such as taking dodge before you can think about taking dodge+10 etc...) as well as the basic idea that a PC CANNOT "save up" XP gained in each session in order to abuse the system by buying all 3 levels of a skill at the same time one after another to go from not having the skill one session to suddenly having it at +20 the next time. So a few basic rules do need to be in place to avoid player abuse of the system and for some semblance of game balance.

1) ALL XP must be used at end of each session or beginning of next one ( spare/left over XP after buying new skills etc..can be kept for later use)

2) You can only buy ONE upgrade per session and MUST have used the skill in question or had some other form of training with it in order to buy the upgraded level of it for that session ( IE someone in your group or that your PC has regular access to for that timeframe needs to have that same skill in order to teach it to you ( as always subject to GM approval )

3) ( a personal houserule here ) skill and stat upgrades ALL cost x2 of the prevous upgrade ( IE. dodge (basic level) would cost 100xp, but dodge+10 costs 200xp and dodge+20 costs 400xp) This prevents too rapid an advance for any skills a character can get to avoid abusing the system. ( Exceptions to this rule are by GM approval)

4) ALL characters still start with one of the basic class packages and work their skills from there

5) The advancement of skills without forming a "Masterlist" to use is simple...the XP cost is based on the associated stat each skill is based on...( IE> if you have a assassin that wants to learn a skill common to an adept...they have to have access to someone with the skill to teach them..the time to learn it...and sufficient XP to do it...the XP cost is based on the cost of the associated stat for the skill...so if it was a AG skill...it would be only 100XP...but if it was a FEL skill...it would be 500XP.....and each upgrade from there would work accordingly...This makes for a simple and fast method to assign XP costs by class particulars since all you need to know is the PCs stat table costs and the skill in questions relevant stat to find the cost of buying the skill at any level. ( saving arguements or needlessly complicated formulae for determining cost

6) ( Optional rule ) The timeframe to learn cross-class skills can also be multiplied by x2 etc...to reflect the potential difficulty in learning something so uncommon to the class ( as per GM decree ) Example> for each 100XP a skill costs to gain it requires 1 week of dedicated training ( or month ) to gain ( also same as stat increases if the GM feels the necessity) so as per the earlier example of dodge skill....basic level would take 1 week to learn while dodge+10 would take 2 weeks to learn and dodge+20 would take an entire month to learn ( again dedicated DAILY training time)

That is my 2 thrones on the subject at least...hope my input helps some of you at least...

Well, I had a nice long reply to this - but the damned boards messed up and deleted it (and since you can't cut and paste here any more it simply vanished) so I'll just say that I don't believe Class/Level systems create cardboard cuttout characters more than any other system - at least, not for RP purposes - otherwise every system is limited by the depth of its flexibility and the quality of its mechanics.

But, then, you're not going to sell me on the idea of Classless/Levelless DH and I won't convince you that it's fine the way it is ... so no point arguing that.

(all the other comments I had are just going to have to go wasted as I'm not spending another half hour writing them up again)

Alox said:

I appreciate the comment, but all it really is is an adaptation of the way careers work in WFRP 1E and 2E, refined some for Dark Heresy.

And I am in the process of further adapting it.

My goal with rewriting the character rank/career system is to create a simple set of rules that have flavor, adds some options and still works with every game sourcebook already published. I always hate when a revised rule comes out that outdates all previous published sources.