BurpsPyscho said:

Yeah but there are after all the ritual duels between Dark Angels and Space Wolves too which can be fatal - so there is a least some pretext for not punishing the player too harshly.

Alex

First off, please don't think that I'm saying that not killing the xenos was the right thing to do, just pointing out that there are some Chapters who would not just immediately killing non-hostiles without thought.

Second, I agree that the focus should be on the Ultramarine as his action was the most horrific. If you asked me how it should be written in a novel, every Battle-Brother should have immediately opened fire on the Ultramarine and executed him on the spot. In my game I have told my players to research their home Chapters to get a feel for how their characters would play and adjust that mind-set. Some have not done it, and if they keep acting up it will get them killed. It seems to me your players are in the same boat.

As an avid 40k fan, I can't honestly give you a good suggestion (except RP rewards for the Black Templar and Space Wolf, yes the Wolf because he actually did the right thing by trying to restrain the Templar after words failed but did not try to inflict physical harm on him) as my immediate thought for the UM is a bolt round to the head and harvesting of his gene-seed.

**The Space Wolf/Dark Angel duels are rarely fatal. Yes, there are occurances of fights between allies, even Space Marines....but shooting a Krak Missile (which is designed for spot penetration of armor, and therefore excellent to use against a Space Marine) is well beyond rightful vengence. Very few Space Marines can claim "battle lust" as an excuse for such a breach of conduct.

Immediate (or delayed, until missioin is over) execution for the UM.
Ultramarines have been sent on death oaths for just leaving their company leader-less to join a vital DW mission (which indirectly lead to the victory over Behemoth), a "minor" breach of the Codex Astartes. Attacking your fellow Battle-Brother with lethal force designed to breach armour? There's no comparison. Even a techmarine would be furious at the total lack of respect to the machine spirits in the attacked armour.

RP bonus för the BT and SW.

The UM acted right in a terribly wrong way. I mean... A Krak missile? Lol. Maybe you should speak with the Player and try to convince him that Astartes does'nt do that to another astartes. Did he get personally pissed off or what?

My own thinking (from a Space Marine and Ultramarine point of view) is that there are no xenos "children"; there are only xenos, every one of which is an enemy of Mankind. Humanizing a xenos by seeing it as a child is heresy. Is a Tyranid spore a child, or a 'gaunt egg-mass or hatchery? Is a psychneuein larva a child?

I can see how this situation could arise, and how one's interpretation of honour could allow for this... but only if the players didn't really understand the nature of the 40K setting, and the stark "us vs. them" mentality of the overwhelming majority of Mankind (and, I'd have to say, the totality of Space Marines). In 40K, xenos are not due any considerations of honour, because they are xenos.

If something like this came up in a game I was running, and I couldn't head it off, I'd definitely use it as the jumping-off point for roleplay later. The Black Templar would be commended by the watch captain for his surety of purpose, and the others censured for their failing. Perhaps they could be dispatched to speak to a Deathwatch Chaplain, and be given a lesson to demonstrate the error of their ways; perhaps a mission that demonstrates clearly the folly of showing mercy to the xenos. They should almost certainly have to undergo psych-screening to make sure they haven't been contaminated or corrupted by contact with xenos. Attacking a brother Marine to protect xenos larvae is a pretty clear sign that something has gone very wrong.

The most important thing is to do whatever you must, ingame or out of game, to prevent there from being any ill will between the players. The attacked player is certainly going to feel annoyed; maybe their Marines need to fight an honour duel to settle things. Friction between characters is fine, friction between players is bad for everyone.

Also, you should probably penalize their squad Cohesion by 1-2 points until the matter is settled. That would be a sound and logical penalty for such a severe schism in the squad.

Direach said:

I am against the Cohesion penalty in general even though realistic. Because it ends up punishing the whole team and might cause further friction and finger-pointing between the players if they run low of Cohesion points. If the players can handle it, okay. But otherwise...

How about a trial? Let the player enter the Chamber of Vigilance and defend his actions. Grill the player, make him sweat, let an Inquisitor try to prosecute him and try to have him turned into a servitor-drone. If the player tries to justify his actions in any way or form, judge him guilty with 1d5 votes in his favour and 13-1D5 against him. If he is repentent and/or shows any willingness to die to make up for his offense, punish him as suggested in this thread with 1D5 votes in favour for servitor duty and 13-1d5 votes in favour of less harsh punishment.

Might even cause enmity between the player the Inquisitor, instant hook for future mission.

And I can see how the members cast their votes: pointing blade towards the offender in the center of the ring - servitor conversion; pointing hilt towards him, disciplinary action by the Watch Captain.

Alex

Problem is not every Space Marine is adverse to working with xenos. I think many people have a misconception of Space Marines as being drones who have no personality and kill anything that doesn't look perfectly human at first sight.

If any of this were true then there couldn't be a Deathwatch RPG. Every Space Marine, even the goody-two shoes of the Ultramarines, has a personality that lets them do things a specific way. One of those things is the ability to occasionally work with, or even spare, xenos. The topic in question is, in my opinion, not one of those cases. However, you have to understand that there will be those who refuse to kill a xenos because they can't fight back.

I have no objections to someone RPing a space marine who argued to spare the Vespid infants, my Space Wolf would likely act in a similar way as he'd see no honour in it, and that it would achieve nothing of note, and might even comprimse the mission. He'd argue and maybe even try to restrain a squad mate from killing them.

He wouldn't however, open fire on them with a bolt pistol, let alone a missile launcher or other heavy weapon.

muzzyman1981 said:

I hate to quarrel but, in point of fact, killing aliens is the purpose of the Deathwatch. I suggest that compassion for alien beings is, however enlightened and well-intended, not something that is in any way desirable or tolerated in a Space Marine. 40K is not our world; our values don't apply to the Astartes, and we would find theirs equally hard to fathom without the context of their experience. To a Space Marine, particularly one chosen to serve in the Deathwatch, xenos = enemy. There's not really much wiggle room there, canonically speaking.

That said, as always, it is down to every group to find what works best for them. One Marine's adorable, dewy-eyed Vespid child is another Marine's squirming, squalling, flesh-hungry xenos larva.

A question you should be asking is who was in command, and who disobeyed a direct order?

Space Marines just dont do things because they feel like it. The Deathwatch is a military organisation with a chain of command, and the Kill Team is a military unit with a leader.

Tam

Tamrix said:

Heh, well our squad leader at the time was under the effects of Delirium. I wrote a custom story for him, and he believed at the time that he was Robute Guilleman fighting the Emperor's Children on Thessala (the planet where Guilleman was mortally wounded). He was roleplaying well at the time, and couldn't understand why his command squad (his deathwatch kill-team) was fighting amongst themselves when the Emperor's Children were just about to engage. It was all fairly humorous.

Direach said:

You have read 40k before, yes? Even for Space Marines there are times when they don't just kill something out of hand. I'm not saying that in this case that they shouldn't have killed the Vespid "kids". I'm making a point for the situation in general, that there may be times that not putting Bolt rounds in an alien is the best course of action.

Xenos does not always equal enemy. There have been MANY cases of Space Marines, yes even the vaunted Deathwatch, working with xenos...especially the Eldar. I'm just putting out the idea of not pulling the trigger every time a person playing a Space Marine sees an alien. The point that others are trying to make is a simplistic view of Space Marines.

The only times I can recall Space Marines canonically allying with or assisting aliens are when confronted with a threat greater than they can hope to defeat on their own, or when failing to tolerate such an alliance would result in mission failure. I also remember that in most cases the Marines turned on their erstwhile allies as soon as it was possible to do so. If you can direct me to a Space Marine tale in which they allied with xenos for another reason, or simply to make peace or show mercy, I'll be happy to read it. I've been involved in 40K since 1987, so I've seen a lot of what there is to see. Mercy towards aliens, except under extremely rare circumstances, does not match up with what I know of the Space Marines, and especially not what I know of the Deathwatch.

Why don't we look at the official word on it (Shadow of Madness, page 16):

"However, slaughtering such defenceless opponents may put a bad taste in the mouths of more honour-bound Adeptus Astartes."

I think the implications are fairly unambiguous: some marines may dislike the thought. But anything more than strong dislike would have to be considered extreme.

Shooting a krak missile at a brother? Unthinkable. That's like allying with the xenos against your own kin.

Alex

First thing to ploint out is:

WHO WAS THE SQUAD LEADER?

If it was the ultramarine and that his order was to let them safe then the Templar is faulty and have disobey a direct order. For that he must be punished (loose reknown). for shooting why a krak missile instead of a few good punches the ultramarine must be punished. Maybe is he banned from his chapter and must serve deathwatch as black shield loosing is chapter mode until his honor is restored and loose reknown also.

Same way if the SW was the leader.

If the templar was the leader then maybe it's the end of the ultramarine life as a SM and a new one as new battle servitor...

Btw I also read uriel ventris novel and the point is, he is not a ultramarine like the other and is punished a lot by the chapter master.

Sorry haven't seen the post where you were telling about your squad leader being high... Thjen who was the leader in the chain of command. No astartes not even IG stay without leadership. If the leader is dead or incapacited or delusional then there must be somebody else in charge. Who was he and what have h done to prevent the "fratricide"

Squad leader high during a mission and Shooting member of squad deliberately- send their gene seed back to the chapter (with a recommendation not to be reused!)

Black Templar and Space Wolf- Reprimand with some 'team building' activity on how to behave as a combat unit.

This is a military organisation, behaving like that and running around on drugs, shooting team mates and otherwise acting like a bunch of cretins that cant sort things out reasonably like a professional soldier, means they will stomp on your cock, very hard with a very big boot. Both cases of drug use and killing team mates are cause for termination as they're obviously going to bring ruin on the reputation of both their chapter and the Deathwatch. The GM would do well to enforce that to the letter of the law, plus it'll discourage further dicking around in future games with PC's killing on each other.

MKX said:

(Shadow of Madness Spoiler) The Delirium Trellises are ancient devices of unknown origin which are responsible for the planet-wide hallucinations on Baraban.

So the squad leader is not be blamed. The Ultramarine with the missile launcher is.

Alex

The infant Vespids were not something that could be allied with against a dire threat and I presume their parents were dead at this point, so that argument goes out the window straight away. Killing a xenos menace is the whole point of the Deathwatch, only to be delayed to kill other, more important Xenos threats.

As for the PC, the Ultramarine PC is obviously insane. A freaking krak missle against his battle-brother? To defend XENOS? Whether it's been inflicted upon him or not, he's obviously a loose cannon, a direct threat to the team and a disgrace to his chapter.

From "Litanies and Rites of the Adeptus Astartes"

The Rite of Indoctrination of The Deathwatch

(The rite is a simple challenge and response, needless to say, it's fairly difficult to mistake it's implication.)

Challnege: To be Unclean
Response: That is the Mark of the Xenos
C: To be Impure
R: That is the Mark of the Xenos
C: To be Abhorred
R: That is the Mark of the Xenos
C: To be Reviled
R: That is the Mark of the Xenos
C: To be Hunted
R: That is the Mark of the Xenos
C: To be Purged
R: That is the fate of the Xenos
C: To be Cleansed
All: For that is the fate of all Xenos

(NB: This is actualy acid etched onto the shout pauldron of all deathwatch marines.)

Ladies and gentlemen, in the grim darkness of the far future there is only war.

JinxZero said:

Right, and there are no radical inquisitors.

Isn't the purpose of the deathwatch to be eternally watchful for a xenos threat that could eventually eat mankind? There are all kinds of xenos that don't get purged or hunted, but it's typically because they don't pose a threat. There then is created the argument, are helpless children of xenos a threat or not? And then personal honor comes into the picture in killing supposedly defenselss creatures.

I'm not saying one is right and the other is wrong here, what I'm saying is there is the potential for grey areas for some marines, Deathwatch or no. This also smacks a lot of the 'do marines have sex' threads and feels like it boils down to your view of the fluff. If pulling the trigger every time something non-human pokes its head into view then go for it, but that doesn't mean it's a rule without exception and it doesn't make a particular marine a traitor for not wanting to kill them. If the marine disobeys a direct order to act one way or the other, he may be getting into trouble. But then again the orders for the DW tend to be more open ended than your typical battle field, though Marines don't obey orders 100% of the time anyhow.

If your DW Kill team was asked to be a security force for an Inquisitor negotiating a peace settlement with the Tau (as has been a story idea suggested all over these forums), how would they act- would they land on the planet and start blasting away because they're dealing with foul xenos? I doubt it.

@Charmander

You still have to admit that firing a krak missile is a bit over the top.Sure, this may be a gray area, but its not that much of a gray area.

Sure, there are radical inquisitors, but even they think they are doing something helpful. Commiting fratricide hardly falls into that category.

Its simple. The Ultra is going to be striped of any rank, and sent back to his chapter for reindocrination, etc., after the Inquisition thoroughly tested him for any taint. I would assign 2d10 Insanity gain from that ordeal, and 1d5 corruption for the act of firing on a brother space marine with the intent to kill. Brother space marines DO NOT do this, ever. They may hold a grudge and dislike the battle brother, but respect for what they are outweighs any compulsion to kill a fellow space marine.

The space wolf should suffer 1d5 insanity for witnessing the act from the ultra marine, as would everyone else on the kill team that witnessed the act.

The Black Templar should be docked any renown given and 1 corruption point if the order from the kill team leader was to not harm them. Otherwise 1d5 insanity like the rest of the kill team.

It is man's destined right to rule the galaxy and all xenos must be purged. Doesn't matter if it had one leg, an alms cup and some happy stickers to give to the kids. Humans *may* work a treaty or some pact of non aggression with a xenos, but that is because humanity doesn't have the forces to eradicate the alien at that time, or there is something more important to accomplish that a conflict with a xenos race will hamper the success of the mission.

KommissarK said:

Oh, yes, I had left the secondary part of the argument off of that post- you're done if you try to kill off a team mate. If I were GMing, I'd try to figure out WHY that seemed like a good idea, as fluff-wise it's ridiculous.

I suspect here the Ultramarine's player was either a younger player or simply didn't know the world that well- he may have just been a jack off, but usually that's not the case in my experience. I'd base the punishment on of that reason- it sucks to lose a character for stupid mistakes, and while you could totally argue that ANYONE should know killing a team member is a bad call, I can also see how someone who had little to no understanding of SMs or the military in general that might think that was within the 40k universe (look at Commisars).

Lucrosium Malice said:

Insanity makes sense here, though 2-20 seems a bit extreme and a very wide range ("As a rule, only the most terrible of sights or outcomes warrant more than a few points."), I'd go lower with 1d5 or max 1d10 personally. I agree, that all of them witnessing the betrayal could have their faith shaken.

Corruption I don't agree with, as the book defines corruption almost completely as coming from the warp- so unless the Ultramarine was tempted by demons to shoot as his brother I'd call foul there. Though if the adventure has him suffering from madness/insanity, perhaps acting on that insanity could prompt the corruption point.

Again though, the motives and knowledge of the player should adjust these accordingly- if the guy was just being disruptive take his character away, if he wsa being dumb and didn't know it, give him some in game reprimands, take stuff away like renown, etc.

And as for never working with Xenos:

Page 315: "Even the most disciplined of Space Marines finds it hard to stay his hand against such enemies, and it is often the case that the Deathwatch is the only force able to share a battlefield with the Eldar without losing control and opening fire on their allies."

Page 315: "While the Imperium has fought one major, and many smaller wars against the Tau Empire, there has been a fair degree of contact, and at time, cooperation."

Page 318: "In some cases, the Imperium is content to tolerate the presence of an alien race on a world, so long as its facilities are not threatened, while some xenos races are so vile their presence cannot be born at all."

No one has argued, that I can see here, that the Deathwatch isn't around to kill xenos and keep humanity safe. We're just saying the term 'always' and 'never' are excessive- while that may be what the catechism says, it doesn't always hold up in the field and the Deathwatch, of all chapters, are able and often required to deal with that.

What I want to know is, have you spoken to the players about all this? Were they upset at this turn of events?

I just think it's a bad idea to try to punish player/group behavior through in-game punishment. If everyone is down with it and aware of it, then drive on. But if there's a lack of communication between you...well, it often leads to more difficulties down the road.