Background :
There is some uncertainty about the status of monsters animated by a hero with necromancy. What abilities and or upgrades should apply to the newly animated monster? Some think it is (re)animated exactly as it was immediately before death (ie with many or all of the abilities or upgrades it may have received when it was under the OL's control).
Others think it has only some of those abilities - though how to tell which abilities or upgrades it 'keeps' is then a second debate.
Possibly some may think it has no upgrades or abilities at all (a gold level monster necromancied would be a copper level monster under the hero's control) though none appear to have expressed that opinion.

Question:
Q. Which upgrades continue to work on monsters that are now under a hero's control (eg necromancy)? Do monster upgrades count (eg Silver level upgrades in advanced campaign)? Do Powers count (eg Doom, Unholy swiftness, Dark Armour)? Do Avatar upgrades count (eg Arcane Energies, Deaths Head, Sniper)? Do Avatar special abilities count (eg Master of the Hunt's The Pack)?
A1: Nothing counts. The newly animated monster does not get any benefits from the OLs powers, special abilities or upgrades of any kind.
A2: Everything counts. The newly animated monster is exactly identical to how he was when he died.
A3: X, Y, and Z types of upgrades are kept, A, B and C types of upgrade do not (fill in X-Z and A-C)
A4: (a full list of all upgrades with each individually specifying whether they are kept or not).
A5: Upgrades that specify 'your' X receives Y (eg 'your' skeletons receive the sniper ability) do not apply because the monster is no longer controlled by the OL. Upgrades that are generalised (do not specify 'your') still apply.

Additionally, an example should be added to the answer:
Example: A Gold level Master Ogre, with Titan (unnamed master monsters roll an extra power dice of their best type) as OL Avatar, from RtL (22W7A, RGGYAu Knockback, Undying) with Greater Ogres (Ogres get Reach and +5 wounds) and Doom (extra black power dice or upgrade) in play is killed and reanimated with Necromancy. The hero controls a:
E1: 8W5Ar, RGYb, Knockback, Undying Master Ogre (nothing counts, not even the gold monster upgrade)
E2: *27*W7Ar, RGGYAu*Au**b*, Knockback, Undying,*Reach* Master Ogre (everything counts - +5W and Reach from Greater Ogres, Gold Monster level, black power dice from Doom, extra Gold dice from Titan's special)
E3a: 22W7Ar, RGGYAu, Knockback, Undying Master Ogre (monster upgrade counts but nothing else)
E3b: *27*W7Ar, RGGYAu, Knockback, Undying,*Reach* Master Ogre (monster and Avatar upgrades count but not powers and not Avatar's special)
E4: something else?

Note: There are reports that KW answered a question on this (about exploding skeletons) at a convention. I understand his answer then was effectively example E3a - only the monster upgrade counts, nothing else. However these reports are
a) not confirmed in any official document and
b) do not give KW or any official answerer the opportunity for due consideration of the answer.

To avoid confusion (both of FFG staff and players reading this thread) we should include an example that actually would be possible - neither large monsters nor master monsters are eligible for Necromancy in the current rules, so quite a few of the issues in the example above are not valid.

Parathion said:

duh! I wrote the whole thing originally with a Sorceror and changed it as I was formulating this thread just to get a Avatar special bonus in there as well!

Will rework it later, cheers.

I think a better way to ask this question, to avoid confusion, would be to make a list of individual items and ask which apply. It's daunting to read, as is.

Like this–

"Which of the following monster improvements continue to apply to a monster after it has been raised by Necromancy?"

a) Power Cards (e.g. Doom, Dark Armour)

b) Monster Upgrades (e.g. Silver Eldritch)

c) Avatar Upgrades (e.g. Arcane Energies, Deadhead)

d) Avatar Abilities (e.g. The Pack)

Also, I can't find any monster improvements which don't specify "your ###" or "### you control", so the distinction between ones that do and don't seems moot. Maybe I missed something.

An addition point of question would be about special abilities which may benefit the Overlord.

For starters, it's always been a little unclear whether surges are 'spent' for threat, or whether the Overlord simply gets 1 threat for each 2 surges rolled. The former implies a choice, the latter does not. If it's the latter, RAW, the Overlord will still get threat if an animated monster rolls 2 surges.

As for abilities, as Dark Prayer is currently worded, the Overlord will still gain threat from an animated monster using this ability.

Other abilities, such as Trickster, may arise if they are every added to applicable monsters.

-pw

Yet another aspect of Necro´ed monsters:

What happens if a Necro´ed monster opens a door to a previously unrevealed area while no hero has LoS to that new area, or if it uses a staircase to enter an unrevealed area first?

Does the area get set up as if a hero entered? If not (as according to RAW), what happens if the Necro´ed monster wanders around in the still unrevealed area and ends up in some "impossible" space, when the area finally gets set up after a hero entered/has LoS to it?

Can a Necro´ed monster open a rune-locked door if the hero party has the key for that door-type?

Btw, the title of the thread could be misleading, since the questions regarding Power cards, threat and monsters abilities also affect the base game.

Parathion said:

That's a good question. Unless the Necro'd monster generates LoS like a hero, the area shouldn't be revealed (and I don't believe it does.) Probably the simplest answer would be to say that a Necro'd monster is still bound by the rule that monsters cannot open doors to unrevealed areas, and therefore the monster would not be allowed to open the door in the first place (even if a hero were in position to see through the door.) A hero would have to open it.

I'm not actually sure how regular (non-Necro'd) monsters work with staircases that lead to unrevealed areas. I'm assuming they can't go through the staircase until the area is revealed, and I would apply the same assumption to a Necro'd monster, per what I said above. This is all speculation, of course.

Parathion said:

I would say no to that one, too.

Revision: Formatting improvement per phelanward. Fixed the example (I think). Added Parathions extra questions, which to be honest I think are easily answer and not necessary - no, it is still a monster not a hero.

Background :
There is some uncertainty about the status of monsters animated by a hero with necromancy. What abilities and or upgrades should apply to the newly animated monster? Some think it is (re)animated exactly as it was immediately before death (ie with many or all of the abilities or upgrades it may have received when it was under the OL's control).
Others think it has only some of those abilities - though how to tell which abilities or upgrades it 'keeps' is then a second debate.
Possibly some may think it has no upgrades or abilities at all (a gold level monster necromancied would be a copper level monster under the hero's control) though none appear to have expressed that opinion.

Question:
Q. Which upgrades continue to work on monsters that are now under a hero's control (eg necromancy)?
Do monster upgrades count (eg Silver level upgrades in advanced campaign)?
Do Powers count (eg Doom, Unholy swiftness, Dark Armour)?
Do Avatar upgrades count (eg Arcane Energies, Deaths Head, Sniper)?
Do Avatar special abilities count (eg Master of the Hunt's The Pack)?
A1: Nothing counts. The newly animated monster does not get any benefits from the OLs powers, special abilities or upgrades of any kind.
A2: Everything counts. The newly animated monster is exactly identical to how it was when it died.
A3: X, Y, and Z types of upgrades are kept, A, B and C types of upgrade do not (fill in X-Z and A-C)
A4: (a full list of all upgrades with each individually specifying whether they are kept or not).
A5: Upgrades that specify 'your' X receives Y (eg 'your' skeletons receive the sniper ability) do not apply because the monster is no longer controlled by the OL. Upgrades that are generalised (do not specify 'your') still apply.

Additionally, an example should be added to the answer:
Example: A Gold level Sorceror from RtL (15W4A, WGY, Sorcery 4) with Arcane Energes (Blast 1) and Doom (extra black power dice or upgrade) in play is killed and reanimated with Necromancy. The hero controls a:
E1: 5W2Ar, WY, Sorcery 2 monster (nothing counts, not even the gold monster upgrade)
E2: 15W4Ar, WGYb, Sorcery 4, Blast 1 sorceror (everything counts - Arcane Energes (Blast 1), black power dice from Doom, gold level monster)
E3a: 15W4Ar, WGY, Sorcery 4 sorceror (monster upgrade counts but nothing else)
E3b: 15W4Ar, WGY, Sorcery 4, Blast 1 sorceror (monster and Avatar upgrades count but not powers and not Avatar's special)
E4: something else?

Note: There are reports that KW answered a question on this (about exploding skeletons) at a convention. I understand his answer then was effectively example E3a - only the monster upgrade counts, nothing else. However these reports are
a) not confirmed in any official document and
b) do not give KW or any official answerer the opportunity for due consideration of the answer.

Question 2
Q. Can a necromancied monster open a door to an unrevealed area, open a runelocked door it the heroes have the runekey, or move through a staircase into an unrevealed area?
A1. No. A necromancied monster is still a monster and is still not allowed to do any of those actions
A2. Yes. A necromancied monster now counts as a hero and can do all of these actions
A3. Something else?

Since this question is already written up, I suggest adding the threat/surge line to the initial question, as

Q:

"Overlord threat gained from surges and/or Dark Charm?"

RAW, the Overlord should get threat, which seems contrary to the general Descent vibe, as well as taking some points from an already questionable skill. And any campaign with Necromancy will run into that situtaion sooner or later. I admit that it's hardly "frequently asked", but since the general question is already marked for inclusion, in the interest of posterity and thoroughness, I think you should add it.

Otherwise, nice work, Corbon.

-pw

phelanward said:

Is this in the wrong place?

A Necromancied monster's attack is surely rolled by the controlling player, not the OL, so the question of spending surges is moot...

I'm not sure where the notion of "spending" surges for threat comes up. Can't find that anywhere in any rulebook- maybe I'm missing something. Either way, maybe you're right that only the Overlord gets threat when he rolls surges with a monster- could have sworn it was simply if any monster that rolls surges.

Nevertheless, the RtL and AoD Rules for Dark Prayer say that a monster with Dark Prayer generates 1 threat for the Overlord for each surge it rolls . Giving the Overlord threat is as much a component of the ability as adding range and damage, so animating Dark Priests is currently a seriously sub-par move. (Either way, it's giving threat to someone . ) Moreover , if there are other abilities (or future abilities) that have static effects (like Trickster) we should know if these still benefit the Overlord.

That is a point that I think is worth asking, since we're already making this inquiry.

-pw

phelanward said:

It may well be written that the OL can spend surges on any "monster's attack roll," but it's also true that Necromancy didn't exist when the core rules were written. If the OL gets to control surges on a Dark Charm attack (made by a hero with a hero's weapon) then I think it's only fair that the hero who controls a Necro'd monster retains control of its surge spending (or lack thereof.)

phelanward said:

I'm pretty sure the FAQ has already clarified that Dark Prayer spends surges the same way as the usual 2 for 1 OL option, it just provides 1 threat, 1 damage and 1 range all for 1 surge. As such, I would still place it under the hero's control as above. Although, in this case there is at least a benefit for the hero (is he willing to give the OL 1 threat in exchange for +1 damage and +1 Range on the priest's roll?) so he might consider spending the surges on this one.

I suppose you could also argue about whether the OL or the hero gets the threat token, but that's just too pedantic a question for me to entertain personally. Sorry.

phelanward said:

It's the OL's rolls, not monster rolls.
DJitD pg10
Using Power Surges (Overlord): For every two surges the overlord player rolls during an attack, he gains one threat token. Any unused surges are lost.

phelanward said:

Ahh, ok. Sorry, I didn't think of Dark Charm = Dark Prayer. It seems at first glance that a necromancied monster who spent Dark Prayer surges for damage/range would also generate threat for the OL and that is definitely worth asking.

Ah..

My bad typo– Charm/Prayer. Didn't see it until this moment. Sorry bout that. Now I understand the confusion.

One more thing. When the OL forces a hero to self attack via dark charm, he has access to the hero's ittems, but does he has acces to the hero's skills? This question may appear out of place, but I consider this two things to be very similar. With Dark Charm the OL controls a hero, and with necromancy a hero controls a monster. I guess it'sjust fair that both ways of control benefit from the same bonuses.

So if a hero-controled monster does not benefit from DOOM (for example), an OL-controled hero should not benefit from rapd fire, blessing, divine retribution and the like. I think it should be like that or the other way round. If it is ruled in a different way, it should definitly be noted on the FAQ.

As stated before, abilities like leach (monsters have no fatige), trickster, black curse (monsters have no conquest value) or dark-prayer (would heros get threat?), which normally only monsters have, should be revised. I think leach was reruled for the SoB, but I'm not sure.

Galvancito1 said:

Yes, he gets the benefits of any skills that may apply. The only thing the OL can't use on a DC attack is Fatigue (I'm also pretty sure he can't change the gear the hero has equipped, so even if the hero has another weapon in his pack, the OL must choose from the one or two he has equipped.)

If this isn't in the FAQ already, it has certainly been asked and answered before.

Steve-O said:

The hero still makes the attack, even if the OL controls it. Thus the hero's skills apply to the attack.

Doom etc are a very different thing as they are not part of the figure's abilities, but externally imposed. But a sorceror's sorcery, for example, would certainly apply for necromancy and is the nearest equivalent of a hero skill.

I think this is making a mountain out of a molehill by not actually analysing it at all.

Steve-O said:

No, it's not in the FAQ yet. If it has been answered, then it should be.