21. Are Fatigue Tokens a Limit

By Corbon, in Descent: Journeys in the Dark FAQ Update Discussions

Background:
It is fairly easy in Advanced Campaigns, especially when payers choose to train Fatigue upgrades at Secret Masters, to run out of fatigue tokens.

Question:
Q: Are the Fatigue tokens shipped with the game meant to be a limiting component (especially in Advanced Campaigns where parties can train a lot of extra fatigue)?
A1: Yes, the tokens are limiting. Heroes may have a combined Fatigue score higher than 24 but may not be collectively using more than 24 fatigue tokens at any one time. If your party combined fatigue exceeds 24 then some heroes will have to be short of full fatigue, even at the start of a dungeon or encounter.
A2: No they are not. Use something else if they run out.

Probably we should extend this question towards any kind of tokens or resources.

In the GLoAQ we find a corresponding question and answer regarding training tokens, while obstacle tokens like pits or rubble and spawned monsters are dealt with in the basic rules if memory serves.

Other tokens where it might be important are: potions, lingering effect tokens, siege tokens, threat tokens, dice upgrade tokens... but I still would not restrict the question to a specific type or subset of tokens.

This is a good question to be put in the FAQ. I would be fine with being told they are not limiting (especially since the heroes can so easily screw themselves otherwise), however, barring official response I would tend to say they are limiting, since it seems like tokens of any kind are almost always limiting in FFG games, except where explicitly noted otherwise.

Parathion said:

Probably we should extend this question towards any kind of tokens or resources.

In the GLoAQ we find a corresponding question and answer regarding training tokens, while obstacle tokens like pits or rubble and spawned monsters are dealt with in the basic rules if memory serves.

Other tokens where it might be important are: potions, lingering effect tokens, siege tokens, threat tokens, dice upgrade tokens... but I still would not restrict the question to a specific type or subset of tokens.

Potions are already confirmed to be limited (at least it has been implied "The store’s stock is limited" ) but I agree with asking about all the other tokens you mention. Wound and money tokens are other posible additions.

Dice upgrades look pretty strange in PtL. There are 12 gold magic dice upgrades but only 11 silver magic dice upgrade. It was possible to fit a 12th die in page 4/4 (I even have a scann of it that proves there was enough space).

Wound tokens being limited seems fairly unworkable: they're used by both sides, and furthermore, monsters represent damage by adding wound tokens, rather than losing them.

So if you're "out" of wound tokens, then, what, the monster can't be damaged?

Antistone said:

Wound tokens being limited seems fairly unworkable: they're used by both sides, and furthermore, monsters represent damage by adding wound tokens, rather than losing them.

So if you're "out" of wound tokens, then, what, the monster can't be damaged?

That applies then to every token. If you use all the gold tokens, do you stop gaining money? I don't think that the actually physical tokens are a limit. If you lose one or eight tokens through the years of playing, do you restrict yourself to what you physically have left? IMO, I don't think this question is an issue.

For me fatique tokens are meant to me limited. They had 24 in the start even though the max was 22 with skilled.

Now in the advanced they didn't add any and not to mention keeping the whole party to a max of 24 fatique balances the campaign with the secret training +2 which is better but it kinda limited that way and not broken. In our party we started with 18 fatique this campaign so that means we will have a max of 4 upgrades for fatique which seems quite right for balancing so you won't get 4 guys with 10 fatique each which will become ridiculous.

So +1 for Corbon i think fatigue are meant to be limited, as potions, as training tokens (something that has been answered). As for the money since they added 2500 coins i find had to believe that you will ever reach the max which could be above 12000 or something and if you reach it then yes it's limiting get the hell somewhere and spend it on skills and items since you are probably playing a poor game :)

Now other tokens i don't know about them. What about poison? Or burn? these are the 2 types of tokens that can easily finish if you play against the spider queen with acidic burn upgrade or against a dragon and you use the breath cone rune. We just substitute other tokens if that happens. The best way it is to get a list of what type is restricting and what not. But as far as my campaign i will keep fatique tokens to a max of 24 as it serves balancing the campaign.

Drglord said:

They had 24 in the start even though the max was 22 with skilled.

If they gave us more than they thought (at the time) we would ever need, doesn't that argue that they are NOT intended to be limited?

Certainly it suggests that the number of tokens was chosen before the designers had any knowledge of when or how it would affect the game if treated as a limit; which prompts the question, "what's so special about the number 24, that fatigue tokens should be limited to precisely that amount?"

Nope because they knew expansions were coming. Why put range in a red die also? They already had in mind that. Anyway i fail to see how restricting is 24 fatigue for me is more than enough even for high fatigue party.

Revision: converted the question to a general question on token limits

Background:
There are a lot of tokens that 'run out', particularly when playing Advanced Campaigns. What tokens are meant to be a limit?
Fatigue tokens often run out when parties upgrade their fatigue at Secret Masters in Advanced Campaigns. Are the 24 tokens supposed to be a limit? (many argue that they are, and it is a good thing or else the heroes become too powerful)
Potions being limited have already been covered in a FAQ answer, but might as well be included in this question (possibly even allowing removal of the other question to save space etc?)
Effect tokens (particularly Burn and Daze) sometimes run out, especially in Advanced Campaigns with heroes fighting very strong monsters and using silver or gold weapons that allow putting on multiple effect tokens per attack (and even more so when heroes can do 3, 4 or even more attacks in a turn with Rapid Fire, Koll's Mark, Feats etc). Are the effect tokens supposed to be a limit?
Wound tokens? (surely not, given there aren't enough wound tokens to do most final battles, and given that wound tokens are a shared resource)
Conquest Tokens? Particularly applicable to Advanced Campaigns and how much can be earned in a single dungeon - the standard forum answer is simply not to use CT 'tokens' for a limited shared resource, just to mark the score with some other indicator (website, campaign diary, marks on the sides of the offical record sheets, etc).
Training Tokens (already answered in the FAQ)?
Money Tokens? (Yes, it is possible to run out of money tokens, especially in SoB where several rumours and Treasure reewards have large sums and spending time is at a premium for heroes!)

Question:
Q: What tokens are limited in the game and what tokens can use stand-in replacements when yo run out?
A1: The following tokens are limited and when there are no more in stock you cannot acquire them until more are in stock. Fatigue tokens, Potion tokens, effect tokens, Training tokens.
The following tokens are not limited and when there are no more in stock you can use substitutes. Wound tokens, Conquest Tokens, Money Tokens.

OPTIONS:
- move some token types between sentences
- have some token types different between Advanced Campaigns and 'vanilla' Descent

Comments: Better? Anything else before it transfers to the FAQ proposal document (FPD)?

I would put the effect tokens in the unlimited list by default. Otherwise it's perfect.

Galvancito1 said:

I would put the effect tokens in the unlimited list by default. Otherwise it's perfect.

gran_risa.gif I wouldn't.
Covered well enough by moving things between boxes. My general rule (theory) is only shared tokens are unlimited, then chucked in money for the sake of it.

Corbon said:

Galvancito1 said:

I would put the effect tokens in the unlimited list by default. Otherwise it's perfect.

gran_risa.gif I wouldn't.
Covered well enough by moving things between boxes. My general rule (theory) is only shared tokens are unlimited, then chucked in money for the sake of it.

+1 to Corbon