There's nothing in the rules that I've seen that say so explicitly, and I'm not clear on what the fluff would suggest.

Since both ammo backpacks and Jump Packs are generally shown as mounting on the top of the power supply for the armor and allowing both would fall into the "you're trying way to hard to be uber" category, I would say they are mutually exclusive and I wouldn't allow both.

If I had a player that begged, pleaded, and bribed me appropriately I might allow a small ammo box mounted on the belt that would triple the clip capacity. It would have to be one helluva bribe.

Agreed. I might allow a player to take a heavy weapon with a jetpack, and just say that it only has the listed clip loaded, and they carry no reloads. At which point the player is hopefully dissuaded from even trying this out.

KommissarK said:

Or, the slightly more fair version, is that they use the standard clip sizes and can distribute the spares among the team. There's nothing wrong with a heavy gunner's buddies packing spares for the big gun.

Why in the name of Russ' sacred left butt cheek would a heavy weapon operator be wanting a jump pack besides trying to be a uber-goober?

A heavy weapon is supposed to sit still and lay down fire, hopefully mowing down a large amount of the enemy while they are at it....which is a tad difficult flying through the air not the mention the extra weight to absorb on landing.

"But this way I can keep up with the rest of my team...." - this is why the heavy weapons have LONG ranges compared to personal weapons.

muzzyman1981 said:

You want to put your machine gun up high were it has the best field of fire.

muzzyman1981 said:

Long range doesn't mean much if you have a restricted field of fire. The jump pack offers exceptional mobility, and it can allow for greater access to high ground points that are ideal for fire support. If given the chance (and the piloting skill) there's no good reason that a jump pack wouldn't be a valued addition to the capabilities of any member of Kill-team.

In fact, my techmarine complains about the fact he cannot carry a ammo backpack in addition to his servo-arm...

HamHamJ said:

Wouldn't he just fly off backwards into the distance as soon as he started firing it though?

I now have an mental image of a devestator flying up with his jump pack, firing his rocket launcher and disappearing off over the horizon, a la Wile. E Coyote, and the shell just dropping to the floor and landing on his teammates

HamHamJ said:

Ummmm for all of maybe 45 seconds then he would have to land before he EXPLODED! The player would be at -60 (and only cause that's the most of a negative the book allows) but that would be after he made a -40 Piloting test to manouver into a proper firing position and stabilize it enough to shoot...

Second, it would be all but impossible to control the flight and make a stable shooting platform while trying the control the jump pack. Jump packs were not made for sustained flight but to advance forward as quickly as possible to close with the enemy.

This is not even taking into account the extra weight, the pure impracticality of a Jump Pack and Ammo Backpack taking up the same space (don't get me started on the silliness a non-Ammo Backpack equiped Devistator), etc.

I can think of situations in which it would be nice to have a jump pack without just "trying to be uber". If the team needs more mobility and all members of the team are equipped with jump packs, then it becomes important to know how this works. What if they're given one shot jump packs for orbital insertion because a pod wouldn't work or isn't available? What if the Ork Warboss they're sent to kill is in a fortification that rises several hundred meters above the ground?

muzzyman1981 said:

One need not STAY in the air using the jump pack while firing the Heavy Weapon - such a devastator would undoubtedly try to land (not only to avoid sickening GM-imposed penalties for daring to think outside the box, but to take advantage of that wonderful little addition to survivability, Cover) before spraying his targets with death from above from what is almost assuredly a more clear fire lane.

Another very important aspect of Jump Packs not yet mentioned, as far as I can tell, is the ability to easily and quickly flee from ground-based attackers. Uh oh, is that 80 magnitude mob getting too close? Sure, the Devastator's Heavy Bolter could potentially knock it down 10, maybe 20 mag... but then the Devastator is eaten in close combat the next turn, and that's a lot of magnitude to burn off while the Devastator (and his team mates, who cannot leave their brother to be torn apart by the rabid mob)get their wounds nickeled and dimed away. If the whole party (Devastator included) is jump pack enabled, the lot of 'em can up and jump 72+ meters in a safe direction (or on top of a building) and pick off the mob at their leisure.

I'm not saying this is always good idea in general (If I ever were a GM, I wouldn't allow both a backpack ammo and a jump pack on the same character - there's only a single slot, there's only so much weight one can place in a backpack position without somewhat unbalancing a person (and for someone like a Space Marine, unbalanced can very easily mean death, or worse, failure), etc., etc.), just that a Devastator shouldn't be restricted from choosing mobility over excessive piles of ammo. Like all things, there are risks and rewards...

i'd pretty much echo the above comments. i'd allow a devastator marine to use a jump pack (provided he trained in the skill at rank 3) and an assault marine with jump pack a heavy weapon but i'd disallow the use of the backpack ammo. the fluff says they both attach to the standard power plant and visually are mutually exclusive. that being said, the heavy bolter does come with a 60 round clip that is fully usable with the jump pack. if the player wanted to use the heavy weapon DURING flight, i'd give a 10-30% penalty to the pilot personal roll depending on the weapon (a silent recoil free lascannon should be less of a hindrance to flight control than a 75 calibre machine gun on full auto). if they just wanted to use it prior/after firing to set up their position, i'd be fine with that also without any penalty.

Unusualsuspect said:

That still wouldn't stop from giving a -60 because the player is flying on a less than stable firing platform shooting a weapon that requires the enhanced muscular structure of an Astartes to shoot without the need for a tripod or being mounted on a vehicle. The shooter would be required, after making an extremely difficult Piloting test to even get the character into a decent firing situation that takes advantage of his new height, to keep the Jump Pack from moving around too much while, at the same time, engaging targets on the ground.

One of the advantages to having a backpack ammo supply is the ability to shoot for periods of time without the need to reload...since the Heavy Bolter has 3Full reload (1Full with Rapid Reload). Thats why the Devistator specialty gets a 250 ammo backpack. They also get MANY other great talents and traits that make them awesome without the need for a Jump Pack.

As for the mobility issue, the ability to keep up with his unit. It's a moot point as any unit would be trained to make sure that EVERY man is able to keep up, if there is a need for a rapid re-deployment there are manouvers the team can, and should, employ to fall back in rapid order while maintaining a good fighting ability. There are very few times when an entire team would be required to have the need of rapid movement while also needing the fire support of a heavy weapon. In the example you gave, the orbital insertion, it's a one time use "jump pack" and therefore a special case as he wouldn't keep wearing the pack once he was on the "ground".

Also think about the Codex Astartes that MOST Space Marine Chapters use for their tactics. It there are no heavy weapons in an assault unit. In my honest opinion as a game master I would allow it but make there be so many penalties associated with it that if a player does want to go that route it would accurately show the cumbersomeness of weilding a heavy weapon AND a jump pack. If they get around the fact they are not nearly as effective then by all means I would let them continue in its use. However, a heavy weapons operator is meant to be far enough back that if they ever have to close with the enemy in hand to hand combat then that enemy has already overrun the rest of his team.

I'm not trying to be a jerk but I tend to think of realistic military tactics....the combination of heavy weapon and jump pack (not even looking at a ammo backpack) is just a case of someone trying to be special, putting his wants and desires over the requirements of his team, and extreme loss of effectiveness in his role within that team.

muzzyman1981 said:

I guess I have just played with too many hard ass GMs then. Most of the time everything is in melee trying to claw your face off. It would certainly be nice to have a jump pack to get out of melee to actually use such a weapon.

muzzyman1981 said:

I truly, sincerely hate this forum software. But on to the responses...

1. You can give whatever penalty you like. Where I ever to GM, I would personally look through extant penalties and figure out which is the closest approximation to firing a heavy weapon without proper bracing. To me, that would be -30 (which, conveniently, is the penalty for firing a heavy weapon without bracing it). The fact that the jetpack is capable of providing flight and enhanced jumping to 500 to 1000+ kg of Superhuman warrior implies to me it isn't exactly a feeble mechanism, and in fact is probably physically capable of compensating for whatever recoil the heavy weapon provides. I'd probably allow a Piloting test, a choice beginning at Challenging and ending at Hard, that might reduce (or remove) such a penalty. That it should be more difficult to shoot midair than on the ground should go without saying; that it should be so hard as to be effectively impossible is probably not going to be as universal a view.

I'd also suggest that a Devastator need not always hover mid-air in search of a better firing lane. Ruins, rocky outcroppings, watch towers, hill tops... there are occasional places that a Devastator with a jetpack can go that a footslogging Devastator cannot easily (or in time to be of use).

2. There are certainly advantages to having a backpack ammo supply (I don't think anyone really disagrees with that sentiment). One of those advantages is the lack of need for reload until that giant pile o' ammo is spent. But seriously consider the Heavy Bolter here... at a clip of 60, that's exactly 6 shots of full-auto goodness. Perhaps I'm a bit too new to the game (aren't we all?), but how often do a single combat require more than 6 rounds of Heavy Bolter fire?

To be honest, the only Heavy Weapon I can't imagine using without a backpack ammo source would be the Soundstrike Missile Launcher - without that backpack supply, you're reloading every other round.

3. A few issues here. First, there's a distinct difference between keeping up with a squad in narrative time versus game time. Outside of combat, the squad really should be moving as a squad, and thus moving as fast as the slowest member (or provided transport that negates the need to footslog). Inside of combat, circumstances dictate how close squad members should be, and how quickly relocation is possible. Inside of combat, the jet pack is the king of tactical relocation, whether you've got a couple chainswords or a BFG. If circumstances rarely dictate a need for such tactical relocation, a backpack ammo source is almost assuredly the best choice. Sometimes those circumstances aren't so rare, and I think that's where a Devastator with a jet pack could find and fulfill a niche.

Second, you have mistaken me for someone else: My example didn't discuss an orbital drop, but rather dealt with a substantial mob closing into melee with a squad. A jet pack equipped Devastator could take a turn to get 72m away, providing him 2-3 more rounds of shooting (Even if into melee, if other squad members didn't make it out), through which the devastator is probably making a decent contribution to the destruction of the Kill Team's enemies. A backpack equipped Devastator is more than likely going to spend those 2-3 turns taking unavoidable melee damage and will be unable to shoot, and thus is unable to contribute meaningfully.

4. The Codex Astartes is, according to Deathwatch, the equivalent of multiple libraries filled to the brim with tactics and strategy. Are you really, absolutely, totally sure that you want to claim that in the entire Codex Astartes, it doesn't bring up scenarios where heavy weapon teams might be equipped for mobility over staying power, or mobile forces picking up heavier weapons? As far as I know, I'm still not making the claim that jetpack Devastators are the cat's meow and that they should be standard issue - just that they can have a tactical role to play.

5. I don't think anyone here thinks you're a jerk... just that there are alternative, viable viewpoints when it comes to the non-traditional tactics and choices a Kill Team and its members might make. It is, as always, up to both the GM and the players to find the appropriate balance of realism and fantasy, of functionality and heroism. Where you and your group set the bar is entirely up to you.

muzzyman1981 said:

So according to you they should get a -60 because they jumped onto the top of a building instead of using the stairs?

That's silly.

HamHamJ said:

You've misinterpreted him. He's talking about firing heavy weapons while hovering midair (through the Jetpack's limited Flyer trait), not when "grounded" on a perch at the top of some ruins.

Unusualsuspect said:

No one is planning on doing that so...

Never underestimate the inclination of a player to take a game's mechanics and fluff to every unimaginable limit - of physics, of fantasy, and of foolishness.

HamHamJ said:

I'm sorry, that is how I read the post on what they wanted to do. If that truely is THE reason for wanting the jump pack, then no I would not apply the -60 as they would be on stable ground. However it still to me would seem they are giving up one heck of an advantage in the backpack ammo supply to have the ability to get to higher ground a bit faster....