First of all, most of my players are very new to the 40k rpg line (I have experience GMing DH/RT), with only one or two having played previous DH games.

Alright, so I have two, maybe three players who are very interested/are trying to play sniper type characters in my game. One actually isn't interested in playing a space marine, and has opted for a vindicare assassin (although he hasn't started playing yet). The other rolled a tac marine, with bolter mastery. To be open to this, I house ruled that the use of Signature wargear allows players to pick items from one step higher in renown, so that the player could pick up a stalker pattern. Overall, it seemed fitting to what he wanted, and I personally did feel that signature wargear was kind of wasted at rank 1 otherwise. What I failed to mention to the player is that sniping (or rather, a high power single shot weapon) is for the most part, mechanically useless against hordes. The player, being new, at this point mostly just knows the basics of the game, and maybe heard in passing that hordes exist, but not really ho

Anyway, onto mechanics. Obviously, DW is going to have alot of hordes in it. It makes the game interesting. Now, I know I should probably add more elite types into the combat. But is there any good way to make a modification to accurate, single shot weapons to allow them to be useful in their own way against a horde?

I was considering just treating accurate as devastating(1), but this still leaves something to be desired.

Perhaps allowing accurate to function as devastating(1), if the weapon achieves a RF (in other words, a particularly gruesome death, from out of nowhere, such that it demoralizes the group, or maybe hits some important member of the horde, but one who is not their own character, etc.?)

Or maybe in general, allow each confirmed RF to cause 1 point of mag damage (gets real nasty with high RoF weapons, but still rewards, etc.)

Suggestions? Thoughts? Was it my mistake for not telling the player how their combat style would be almost useless against possibly 50% of the opposition they face? Am I running something wrong here? Is this working as intended?

How about the vindicare eventually, will these changes be effective for that character?

KommissarK said:

Why?

KommissarK said:

Yes, yes and no.

Why would you want to surprise and dissapoint your player? His character is supposed to be a veteran of untold battles, bestowed with the extreme honour of serving in the Deathwatch and he still hasn't figured this out?

One thing is that the player does not know the system well enough. In that case, it is, IMO, the GM's duty to help him.

It literally was because we were in a hurry to get started. I was informed that one player had to leave at 6PM. We were starting at 3PM, and I was running a bit late (had to pick someone up). Upon arriving at the FLGS, I learned that one other person wanted to play (this being the sniper type in question). There were only two books available (mine and one other player's book). Also, I was helping two other players get their characters prepared (xp spent, etc.). While I knew that the strategy was not that effective, I was saying it in a way like "well, its not that effective, but if it is what you want to do...". I did not get into the mechanics of how at most, he would be dealing only 2 damage with his weapon (1 for hit, 1 for X type). I did state that such a tactic would to primarily attack "nastier things."

Still, is there any "balanced" means of increasing the output of single shot, accurate weapons?

KommissarK said:

Against Hordes? Pinning tests. (actually this should go for most NPCs who are being sniped at and can't make out the sniper). And with the WP of most hordes that will take them largely out of combat. Snipers will be fairly useless against hordes of hormagaunts though. But let your players find that out the hard way.

Alex

If a sniper shot starts getting bonuses against a horde, you're going to end up adding them for a lot of things, such as Lascannons and multi-meltas.

Regarding the stalker, you could have pointed him at the astartes sniper rifle, but I do agree that reducing the Renown requirements is a not unreasonable benefit of Signature Wargear.

ak-73 said:

I agree with making the Hordes take pinning tests against sniper fire. It makes sense (and is in keeping with what sniper fire should do). Naturally, any enemy that would be immune to fear, etc. would not be bothered with such things (such as tyranids).

Do also remind him that he does have frag / krak grenades as well. This would work rather well if one sniper pins the hordes, while the other sniper throws frag grenades at them.

Actually if you've got a surplus of players*, its worth freeing one up as the Point-Man on forward recon with a rifle and marine carapace so you dont blindly bumble into a horde of 'ammo soaking' scrubs out to make trouble.

*assuming also you have a player thats not a **** for brains that actually knows what doing recon actually means.

Two things to note:

- His standard wargear includes a bolter and frags, and he has the option to requisition more gear. So he still can be effective against a horde, he just has to switch weapons.

- Who said a horde had to come alone ? Sprinkle in a few elite enemies and he can pick them off while the rest of the party deals with the horde.

I don't see any rule changes as necessary. Just let him know that sniper weapons are useless against a horde.

Bilateralrope said:

That's worthwhile advice anyway - providing a mixture of enemies helps keep combats interesting, and using hordes alongside more powerful individual enemies (particularly ones that, like Tyranid Warriors, grant some extra advantage to the hordes they're "leading") means that you're not just throwing ammunition against a wall of foes. Even the archetypal "horde" aliens of 40k - the Orks and the Tyranids - have powerful leaders amongst the teeming masses.

Thanks for the ideas.

During the session, I was running Final Sanction, and we started with the chapel battle (and thats actually all we managed, we only started playing by 5). The sniper player chose to go up into the chapel tower, and use it as a position to snipe from. He reasonably passed a concealment check, and the enemy butchered it. Combined with nighttime, and a the enemy being more concerned with the other space marines/PDF, I ruled that they didn't pay much attention to the slightly silenced bolter.

In this case, pointing out grenades would have been meaningless, and his range with a bolter would have made the stalker pattern better here anyway.

The horde magnitudes were small enough in this case that even his attacks were semi meaningful, and I allowed some of the damage he was dealing to have its own effects. Sadly, the few points where there were actually meaningful targets for him to attack, they were out of LoS to him.

I guess part of my problem also isn't the mag damage he doesn't deal, but also how much the character is away from the danger/unable to closely participate in combat. Basically, he's setting himself up to just spend every round aiming/shooting. Sure, I could throw some other enemy at a flank that might get to him, but that is not always appropriate.

Fortunately, I should have more time next session to sit down with all the players, and do a better job of running through the rules. Or telling them outright to support the FLGS and get their own books. Or PDFs now.

Thanks for the ideas, of course, wouldn't mind further thoughts/discussion.

Also, on the whole "give lascannons/multi meltas a bonus" argument, note that I was specifying accurate weapons. The idea being that they are able to pick out particularly important members of a horde (who may not qualify as their own profile). I don't see why not just have the accurate +1d10 per two DoS (max +2d10) turn into +1 mag damage per 2 DoS (max +2), or allow a switch out, depending if damage is needed vs. the horde. This sets an accurate weapon to still be semi deadly compared to a full auto weapon, but still requiring the best roll to get that level of damage out of the weapon. Given that hordes == speed bump (at least, in my interpretation of the spirit of the rules), I don't see what harm allowing +2 mag damage would be.

Boltgun - max 4 hits, +1 X, requires 3 DoS (initial hit, plus 3 more) = 5 mag damage on 3 DoS
Stalker - max 1 hit, +1X, +2 accurate, 4 Dos (initial hit, 2 DoS for first +1, 2 DoS for second +1) = 4 mag damage on 4 DoS

Other thoughts on this
-Bolter is still superior, costs less, comes with fire selector, etc.
-Full auto is a +20 bonus, accurate + aim is also +20, so even on to hit bonuses.
-Due to RoF, specialty ammo is more effective per attack with a bolter, but is possibly wasted (metal storm on bolter vs. stalker, means more mag damage with bolter)
-Stalker needs reload less often, but hardly and issue with bolter
-Probably one of the good things a stalker does get though is it is ideal with a red dot sight. Bolter can't say the same.
-Range is better on stalker, 0-3PB, 4-100m short, 101-400m medium, 401-600 long, 601-800 extreme, but this really only matters by combat
-The key problem would be is that it is obvious the stalker deals more single damage than a boltgun (so better against big enemies), while less effective vs. hordes. So if its abilities vs. hordes is improved, does this make it a more common weapon? Difficult to say, full auto is fun, special ammo + full auto is fun. Also, get get the full benefit of accurate, they must aim the weapon, so both boltgun and stalker effectively require a full round for their more effective uses.

Anyway, any thoughts on this idea in particular? Good/bad?

I like the idea of pinning, but that almost becomes too powerful (at least, during FS, where there are human enemies with semi low magnitudes/low WP). Of course, I can always justify throwing more genestealers.

Just personally, I think that making the sniper effective against hordes undercuts the theme and spirit of the "sniper". If someone wants to play a sniper, they should be wanting to pick out important single targets. It feels like "allowing the Devastator to shoot into melee", because his weapon is useless in melee otherwise.

What I would suggest is that you might pull him aside and point out that every specialist also functions as a generalist, since Space Marines are so powerful. The Devastator has little to no 'specialization' in close combat, but he has a pistol (and is pretty accurate with it), and he can pick up a chainsword to parry. The Assault Marine has very little to do against ranged enemies, but he can easily requisition a Bolter and blow holes in things. The Techmarine's specialty has nothing to do with combat, but he's generally Strong and Tough, and can shoot a bolter as well as anyone. Apothecaries are also just as adroit with a Bolter and Chainsword as the next Marine. If you don't have a Sniper, there's very little you can do to 'make do' without one, just like there's not a whole lot you can do without a Tech-Marine that involves tech (of course, someone can learn Tech-Use, Security, and Demolition, but it's a lot easier for the Tech-Marine to do so). He should be given enough 'spotlight' time to feel useful, but I don't think you need to find a way for him to play to his specialty in each fight.

Not every combat in every mission is going to need the specialized skills of a sniper. That's not making the sniper irrelevant, any more than a mission in a Hive Ship means that the Tech-Marine is irrelevant. He's still a Marine, and much deadlier than a normal Guardsmen in any situation. It's not unfair to expect him to heft a bolter with some specialty ammo, or whip out a Chainsword.

In addition, ranged weapons, in general, are very useful in DW. The xp he spends on Ballistic Skill and Ranged Talents are going to pay off when he picks up most ranged weapons, not just his Sniper Rifle. He should be a darn good shot with a "plain" Bolter (and the specialty rounds that a Tactical Marine gets for free) too!

I like Colten's ideas here- let them know that despite having a 'specialty' they're still expected to have some general capabilities- like a bolt pistol at least, some frag grenades, etc. They're also likely to switch up equipment based on the mission parameters- if there are a few elites on the planet, send in the sniper to take them out. If there are tides of enemies, probably better to bring just a regular bolter (or HB). And Bilateralrope's suggestion of the elites mixed into give each character the chance to use their specialty is a good idea. This is something I've been questioned by my group as well, as some of them feel that having a devestator is a requirement due to hordes. To me, I want to make sure that I tune my adventures to the group- if no one wants to be the devestator, then they won't face massive hordes all that much (or when they do I'll have to come up with alternative ways to deal with them).

I'd take those methods over adjusting damage. But in an effort to not be only a contratiron: As I said my group brought this up as well- why do weapons like a huge sniper rifle or a lascannon can only kill essentially one guy (yeah, I know the literal horde size is flexible, but the magnitude seems to tie roughly to enemies like PDF guardsman- a platoon is maybe mag 30, etc.). One suggestion that we came up was to give them the same bonus to horde damage as a Marine's Hand to Hand attack- you get one extra hit on the horde for every two DoS, and all those spiffy devestator talents don't stack onto it. This could represent the massive shot tearing through one individual and blasting the folks behind him, like an old fashioned cannon ball (warhammer fantasy table top anyone?) or just a super high powered round (Indiana Jones?).

I maintain that it makes sense that enemies who get fired upon and don't know where the fire is coming from have to roll for pinning.

Alex

ak-73 said:

Only if they notice the 1 shot that comes from an unknown direction amongst the tens of shots coming from known directions.

Hi

As someone who plays a sniper character in DW (specifically a Space Wolves Wolf Scout (tac marine) in carapace armour all the time - I don't even own power armour ) I started with the Astarties rifle and then used signature wargear to get a Stalker as soon as I had access. At the moment the majority of our fights have been against hordes but thanks to my trust bolt pistol i'm not feeling to left out of the glory (metal storm helps here). It has however been a serious boost to the kill-team to have a character who is able to operate quickly and quietly to remove troublesome enemies like warbosses, guards - and at one point a juggernought of khorne.

On a side note i've tried using grenades to boost my horde-busting abilities (and keep my skin intact) but the standard frag and incendary grenades lack the damage to actually score on most hordes (or at least most ork, daemon and nid hordes as thats all we have met).

Just my experiences

Surak

I see no reason to change game-mechanics just because single-shot weapons are weak against hordes. Different specialties have different roles. Sniper is weaker against hordes, but so is a bolt-pistol-carrying Assault marine. Or a Librarian who opted for telepathy and divination instead of Avenger... Devastator with heavy-bolter is a god of carnage in horde-fights while devastator with lascannon is almost useless.

Gotta say, I am with Polaria on this one.

The strengths of a sniper rifle are the range, accuracy, and single shot power of it. Taking out a leader is effective, yes, but not going to do much against certain kinds of hordes (Ork Mobs, Nids, crazed villagers, Khorne Cultists). Why? Because that is just a blind rush, where a single shot weapon isn't effective. Against say a Tau or Eldar horde, where it is more likely to be a led group, taking out the leader can have benefits and that is fine.

I don't think you should modify the sniper weapon to make it better against hordes, because then you remove the weakness of the weapon without toning down its strength. He can hit enemies from further away, more accurately, and with more punch. Why should he also be able to mow down groups en masse? Especially when the other people who can do that have to be cooking through round after round of ammunition - and thus have to reload quicker. Sure, that heavy bolter in a Devastator's hands can a mob quick, but he is also spitting out 10 rounds of fire a round, and is built to be strong against hordes.

Tell the player about hordes, and that he'll be weak against them (only reducing the mag by one per hit), but that he can requisition other gear for certain things, and still use his bolt gun as normal.

As far as sniper's pinning? If it is an open combat, a sniper rifle is just one more gun shot. Before a fight, I'd let a sniper rifle do suppression or pinning tests. But when you have 30 rounds a second coming from the left, and only 1 round every 6 seconds coming from the right, you barely notice the shots coming from the right. Especially when you're a mindless horde (and if not, well, killing a leader should have some benefits)

Giving Accurate +1 Mag per 2DoS is too much, imo. You make a single Stalker shot nearly as effective as a full burst from a bolter (4 vs 5) and much better vs single targets (only applying TB/AP once is pretty huge for most of the things you wouldn't find in a horde), and everyone will use Stalkers. Yes, specialty ammo is better in a standard bolter, but a magazine goes further in a Stalker. And, the small difference in power between a stalker and a standard bolter vs a horde can easily be covered by a Devastator.

Well, I probably won't be implementing anything, this is more a thought experiment at this point. As I said, I ran the encounter mechanically, and will probably keep doing so, just telling the player to find better ways to apply themselves. Obviously, I will keep throwing more elite single targets at the party, but I don't want to feel that I am specifically doing this to give the sniper something to shoot at. Also, the party doesn't have a devastator, so I was trying to come up with some ways to increase their abilities vs. hordes.

Although one thing I would like to point out is that mag damage is hardly a result of purely killing enemies. It is the result of things that reduces a hordes morale/willpower to keep fighting. If a horde breaks, its not considered to be killed to a man. Heck, even at mag 0, I would still describe a few stragglers running off. Of course, as the horde gets larger (lets say mag 120, large enough to possibly be representing a tide numbering in the thousands), there will be far more "warm bodies" than there are points of magnitude. "Breaking" could mean more a representation of the horde retreating after such heavy losses, but quite possibly still maintaining a fairly large size. So just saying that a single shot weapon can't deal more than one point of mag damage is kind of off. I would say more weapons should have the devastating quality. My question then, is why doesn't accurate provide the devastating quality? Its a sort of tactic that takes a heavy hit on morale, possible fitting to an "unnatural psychological property or pure devastating power". Also, on the argument of not noticing the couple of extra shots during combat, the enemy may very well notice that their cover doesn't seem to be helping them against some attacks, and possibly realize there is an unseen enemy with a good position against them.

Obviously, I will keep throwing more elite single targets at the party, but I don't want to feel that I am specifically doing this to give the sniper something to shoot at.

Your not. Have a look at the traits the various enemies:

- The nid hordes require the presence of a elite/master creature or they will be limited to their instinctive behaviour. While hormagaunt hordes will become more dangerous (gaining fearless and frenzy), Termagaunt hordes will automatically break when the synapse creatures are slain.

- The Daemon Prince has a trait (hidden at the bottom of page 163) that means any horde with him increases in magnitude by 1d5 each round.

- If a kill team is reduced to 0 cohesion in the presence of a Tau Commander, all Tau under that commander get to reroll missed ranged attacks.

Also, the party doesn't have a devastator, so I was trying to come up with some ways to increase their abilities vs. hordes.

I'd suggest adjusting the horde for them.

So just saying that a single shot weapon can't deal more than one point of mag damage is kind of off. I would say more weapons should have the devastating quality. My question then, is why doesn't accurate provide the devastating quality? Its a sort of tactic that takes a heavy hit on morale, possible fitting to an "unnatural psychological property or pure devastating power". Also, on the argument of not noticing the couple of extra shots during combat, the enemy may very well notice that their cover doesn't seem to be helping them against some attacks, and possibly realize there is an unseen enemy with a good position against them.

With that many rounds coming at them, there will be some that manage to get past the cover. So I don't see how they would thing of the sniper shot as anything unusual.

Surak said:

Just a point of info, you can throw a grenade with each hand. You are ambidextrous, so at most you have a base -20/-20 to-hit with each, and they will explode somewhere even if you miss.

Suijin said:

You require the appropriate Two Weapon Wielder talent to make Multiple Attacks like that (pg 246). Since I haven't seen (or looked for) a Two Weapon Wielder(Thrown), I think you're out of luck in that regard.

Ambidextrous means that you can hold a bolter in one hand while keeping a sword ready in the other, attacking with either (but not both) without penalty. Using both requires TWW and is at -10/-10

ak-73 said:

Against Hordes? Pinning tests. (actually this should go for most NPCs who are being sniped at and can't make out the sniper). And with the WP of most hordes that will take them largely out of combat. Snipers will be fairly useless against hordes of hormagaunts though. But let your players find that out the hard way.

Just want to point out, not that its a major thing, that I read that a Horde uses its Magnitude against Pinning Tests, so even low WP Hordes tend to have a half-decent chance of passing that test given that the lower WP ones tend to be given higher Magnitudes in most games I've seen or read about.

Radomo said:

There is no TWW for grenades, as they don't go off of thrown. Using a grenade is a simple Ballistic skill test. It is in a side bar in the Armory. Whether this means no dual-wielding grenades (makes sense) or with prep anyone can dual wield grenades (also makes sense) is up to the GM

Radomo said:

I don't believe it is stated explicitly in DW rules, but in DH it is stated (at least in the errata) that you can attack with both hands even if you don't have either ambidextrous or TWW. The penalty for such an attack is -20/-40. I am assuming that space marines can at least do the same as any dreg.

Otherwise the penalties of -20/-40 would never be applied if you couldn't do it. If you had ambidextrous only the penalty would be -20/-20 and if you only had TWW then the penalty would be -10/-30. So I am going to go out on a limb and say you can because you can in DH.