So, a heavy flamer normally does 8+1d5 damage. In the hands of a Devastator, do we double that, giving 18-26 hits or add 1d5? Basically, do you treat a Flamer as a Blast weapon or not?

For the ongoing fire effect, can Hordes catch on fire (take some ongoing Mag damage)?

I would say 18-26 seems ok, since it's pretty devastating and has only a 30m range. But, then you add in Cleanse and Purge, and you're looking at 20-36. Possibly just double the static damage and take the rolls as-is, giving 17-21 w/o talent and 18-26 with talent.

A flame weapon used on a Horde will hit it a number of times equal to one quarter of the weapon's range (rounding up), plus 1d5. So a flame weapon with range 10 will hit a horde 1d5+3 times.

pg. 360 in chapter XIII: Adversaries.

Unrelenting devastation only would affect the astartes heavy flamer. At max range of 30 on the largest flame weapon, thats 30/4 = 7.5 = 8 x 2 for unrelenting devastation. Flamers do not have the blast quality so they do not benefit from the extra 1d5.

Sorry for all the edits had to re-read a few things.

Tidomann said:

Yeah. I know. That's why my example heavy flamer did 8+1d5 Magnitude damage. They do not have the blast quality, but the Flame quality gives them +1d5 damage. The Cleanse and Purge also increases the Horde damage by 1d5. Pretty sure I covered all that already.

My question was, how do people treat Flame weapons for Unrelenting Devastation. They definitely get more than 8 x 2 damage. The question is whether it is (8 + 1d5 (+1d5 with Cleanse & Purge)) x 2 or 8 x 2 + 1d5 (+1d5 with Cleanse & Purge). The former is quite strong, while the latter is just ok.

And also whether Hordes catch on fire.

Radomo said:

8 x 2 + 1d5 (+1d5 with Cleanse & Purge) is my interpretation.

SpawnoChaos said:

My mistake, I completely read over the cleanse and purge part :/

This would be my interpretation as well.

SpawnoChaos said:

But unrelenting devastation says it adds 1 mag damage for every hit. The heavy flamer gets 8 + 1d5 + 1d5 hits (with cleanse and purify), so 10-18 hits. You can't disregard the extra 1d5s as "hits" not affecting unrelenting devastation.

Also, if some of the hits from the flamer don't do damage then you still get the unrelenting devastation, correct? As that is based off of how many hits, not how many hits turned into damage.

So mag damage possible is 10-36. If all hits damage, then it becomes (8+2d5) X 2 = 20-36 mag damage.

FFG could have solved a lot of these interpretational issues by explicitly calling out their suggested methods for multiples, rather than hinting through various sources (like the Power Fist's "doubling" of strength bonuses).

I don't think there is a "right" answer. I would suggest that Flamer weapons certainly should be extremely capable of slaughtering hordes, probably moreso than even the Heavy Bolter, and thus I feel that doubling ALL hits, even those added as extras. This is a DEVASTATOR wielding a Heavy Flamer, after all... do we really want to make the short-ranged flamer a less-capable destroyer of mobs than the Heavy Bolter, when the Heavy Bolter already excels at everything and anything already?

Unusualsuspect said:

Seconded.

Alex

I was just pointing out the distinction between hits and mag damage in the RAW. It didn't seem to be done as I read RAW in the above examples.

Any GM neds to decide these things for themselves, but as a GM it is still nice to see the RAW interpretations as the basis, then you can change things after that.

Based on the 'order of operations' answer Ross gave for Medicae and Narthecium, I'd assume the official answer is 8x2 +2d5.

I felt that order of operations is an irrelevant justification, since the question was, essentially, 'Where do you put the parentheses?' Anyway, my games will be using (8+2d5)x2 as a Heavy Flamer should be pretty amazing vs a Horde.

Radomo said:

Order of operations for the purposes of deathwatch as with unnatural strength and toughness or power fists is always multiply first, then do d5 rolls and add them in then do normal additive quanities.

So to me that would be the 8 x 2 first then any d5 added to 16, then any other d5, and then any other modifier.

Warhawk X said:

What precedent are you citing here? The fact that Power Armor's Str bonus is not applied to Unnatural Str? That would be because it is not part of your Unnatural strength, but rather an addition from an outside factor.

Power Fists don't add anything. They simply increase your Unnatural Str multiplier by 1 (from 1 to 2 or 2 to 3), just as described in the Unnatural Characteristic trait description.

And, again, parentheses are part of the order of operations rules. The question is where do you place them when combining disparate talents/rules?

And, to be really specific, Unrelenting Devastation doesn't double the number of hits. It adds one Magnitude damage per successful hit. So, if you really want to be pendantic about the order of operations, it is 8 + 2d5 then add 1 to each of those hits. Shorthand for that is (8+2d5) x 2.

I agree with Radomo, which was the original point of my post. The 8+2d5 is the number of hits from a heavy flamer. Then after you figure that out, you add in extra magnitude damage from unrelenting devastation based on how many hits you had.

Otherwise how would you add in the magnitude damage from unrelenting devastation if you have not finished figuring out the number of hits?