CrispyRat said:

I think the old Underground RPG from Mayfair had a clever idea about these things. Both player and GM roll, and the player only rolls to see whether he knows whether he succeeded or not. He does not know how well he succeeded, which is determined by the GMs roll. I think the degree of success alone gives the player too much information. If the GM words his answer well enough, he can still be truthful (if he rolled a success for the divination for the PC) without letting the player in on how well exactly he rolled.

So, simultaneous roll (PC/GM)

fail/fail - gets some information that is wrong, or nothing, depending on how the GMs roll was

fail/pass - gets information, that is true, but won't know whether it is true or not

pass/fail - gets bogus or misleading information, or none, and knows something to be wrong with the information

pass/pass - gets information truthfully, but does not know how much information is revealed (whether he is at the max. degrees of success).

What do you think about this ?

Ariolan

SpawnoChaos said:

SPOILER WARNING.

You're missing the point. In Extraction the GM chooses where the Magos is located. If a Librarian can see where he is located (and I reiterate once more: we're dealing with a planet in the final stages of a nid invasion), he can travel there directly. And this, I have to say spoils my fun as a GM, it makes the scenario too predictable for me. No matter where I place him, I know the players will skip the rest of the possible locations. If I keep the librarians (yes, my group has two) from finding out exactly, the situation is more open-ended from a GM's perspective.

Alex

KommissarK said:

Being a math student I use a different system: permutation tables.

I have created a sheet with two tables that assign to a given D100 roll a different number from 1 to 100. All numbers appear exactly once in each table.

The advantage of that is that the players can roll themselves (not the GM) and you don't have to take any measures to hide the die results from their eyes.

Just make sure you have enough tables so that the players won't even bother to try to remember which die result correlates to which table entry and your good.

Alex

ak-73 said:

You know, as I mentioned above ak-73, the Warp Is Fickle. Tell them all the possible locations of the Magos when they do a check. As a GM, you don't have to decide to "stick with your first decision". It's not like some kinda video game where you're going to find the guy in the same spot once you know where to look. You can move the Magos around the entire map for the next 32 hours of actual gameplay if that's what you want to do.

Great, they know where the Magos's signature could be, and the librarian narrowed it down to 5 possible locations. They still have to get to those locations. Once they reach one location, if that' s where you decided he was going to be and they haven't been through enough pain and suffering for your liking, then have him be somewhere else.

As a GM you are the ultimate authority and the keeper of the story. The story CAN and WILL change from the beginning of the session. Even pre-generated stories, once the game is in session, rarely follow the plot to the letter.

I myself don't run pre-generated stories for this very reason... and an even bigger reason is:

Players will do what players will do.

You can't predict them, not matter how hard you try, so why bother? Have a general idea of what they are trying to accomplish (via objectives), a clear vision of the local that they are visiting (not a whole layout, but a rough idea), who the opposition is, and a reason for them to be there (plot). Let them create the rest.

Believe me, I just sit back and watch the fun. Then again, this is just my style of GM'ing, all seat-of-the-pants reactive to the players. Plot hooks and all. If they take an interest, then pursue that idea further... if not, then let that idea go for later.

But, as Kage would say, YMMV.

SpawnoChaos said:

I think we're on the same page, I was just trying to convey the difficulty some see here in Divination powers. If you take a look specifically at the psy power Divination, you will find that mere success could shorten the scenario considerably if you blindly go by the rules. Unless Vyakai isn't his true name.

Anyway I am not into changing the position of the Magos. I think if the players guess well, they should be rewarded... up to a point. I'll probably choose two locations so that the players will have to visit two different locations minimum.

Alex

Putting aside the "warp is fickle" stuff, divination powers are just something else the GM needs to consider when constructing adventures that challenge and entertain his players. This is all about knowing what the players can do and using that to make cool adventures. If there's a secret somewhere that you don't want the players to know, even through divination, that's easy enough to do, even without blanket denying the use of Divination powers.

For example, let's say you've got a guy somewhere that the players have to get to. The Psyker could try to reach out and find him through his powers. A Techmarine could use a high-end auspex for a similar task. Don't want him so easily found? Throw in an enemy asset that can block that method of detection, a hive mind creature or a scanner blocker. This gives an objective they're going to want to deal with first that prevents them from running straight to the objective. Here's how a scenario could work out:

Primary Objective: Save Guardsman Hector, the last survivor of Atellus Squad, because only he knows the location of a MacGuffin that could save thousands of lives. He is behind enemy lines and being surrounded by Tyranids. He has hidden himself somewhere in the Terrorcaves to hide from the swarm.

Complication: Enemy Hive Mind Creature (say, a Zoanthrope), is preventing enemy intrusions into the warp to cover the full nature and force of the Tyranid assault. Local powers work fine, but anything long range (including astropathy and long-range telepathy) require opposed tests, and the Zoanthrope gets bonuses for each Hive Mind creature in the area. Additionally, the nature of the Terrorcaves makes long-range scans difficult at best.

Now if the team has the ability to track through normal means, they might be able to get a fix on Guardsman Hector pretty easily, but they'll still have to muck about in the Terrorcaves for a while. On the other hand, if they go to take out the Zoanthrope (a lesser objective), they can not only pinpoint his location, but make a mission later that much easier. However, taking the time to handle the Zoanthrope can result in further complications, like the swarm responding to the attack on the Zoanthrope.

Additionally, there are times when knowing something doesn't help that much. If you're trying to find a new way in to a dangerous position, finding out that the only way in is the one where the enemy is dug in like an Alabama tick, well, too bad. Never mind the times that the test is not successful. Even as Space Marines, there are times you do not want to mess with the Warp, and each time you use a power unfettered or with a push, you run the risk of killing everyone around you. Areas where the veil is weak especially. But let's go through the powers one by one.

1. Augury: This is pretty much a gut check. Nothing particularly awesome is gained here that can't be gleaned from a mission briefing or a properly paranoid mind. Let's say the mission is to fight Orks. "The worst thing you will face is Armored Nobz, there will be lots of Orks. Possibly Flash Gitz. Bring a Boltgun, it will fell them nicely. Don't let them get close." It can offer information that can be useful, like there might be Necrons on the planet or something, but barring stuff from way out in left field, this is at the height of its utility before a mission to help with loadouts. Good intel and a smart leader match this.

2. Divination: This one is loaded with problems. First off, knowing where something is doesn't necessarily make it any easier to get to, especially if there's an army between the two of you. It doesn't give you the best path to follow, and it certainly doesn't tell you if the target has moved since the last time you checked. It's also pretty short ranged with that -10 for every 2km out you are. Good intel, a good auspex, and orbital sensor support match and potentially surpass this.

3. Reading: Not much different from some of the telepathic techniques, this requires the subject to be present to be used, and wouldn't work well against, say, a chaos daemon who is attempting to hide the possession (I believe an automatic -30 is applied in that case). This can be approximated by scrutiny checks, but not to the same detail. There of course, can be defenses against this sort of thing to prevent big bads from being revealed, but let's be honest, even if there's a big bad you want to be giving orders to the party and the Librarian reveals it through this power and throws the campaign off the rails, that's poor planning. Knowing what your players can do is central to being able to construct challenges for them. Flexibility is key here. Even if they figure it out, it may not do any good. Plans are set in motion and things will continue to happen until the core problem is resolved.

4. Psychometry: Requires Augery, which makes this an expensive choice, since Deathwatch Librarians can only ever get 9 powers ever and three of those are from a limited list. This power is largely about getting baseline information for people to use regular methods of hunting on, name, face, rank, career, etc. "Know your enemy", if you will. Usually this would make sense after facing the guy. It's a hint, and at best a battle strategy against him the next time you face him. The same thing

5. Lifting the Veil: This gives information on things that have already happened. This one is a gold mine, though it's even more expensive than Psychometry. Using this, players can make up for being late to an event, allowing the game to keep going when they went off the beaten path and did something else. It's weird, otherworldly, and perfect for the flavor. While tracking and such skills might provide basic coverage of "there was a fight here, the victors headed off to the east", this can allow for more information.

6. Possibility Shield: This isn't even a "divination" power, really. It's a combat power, pure and simple, it just uses divination as its fuel.

So basically, this issue seems to come down to one simple thing: In the example adventure in the book, there is a situation wherein knowing where a guy is removes some of the guesswork. To this, I say "so what?". Let the players be the heroes, let them use their powers and skills and weapons to bring victory and glory to their kill team. Want to mess with them a little, increase the challenge? By all means. Have the Magos wander about, the Kill Team hot on his trail, the Librarian having to scan regularly to see which direction the poor fellow has gone in his delirium. Maybe he lost his datacore in his daze, and when the team revives him he feverishly orders them to go find it, because it is it, not he, that is important. Perhaps the poor Magos is dead, and his metal parts are all that can be tracked, in the belly of a terrible Xenos creature.

None, I repeat, none of these abilities are "I Win" buttons. They are useful tools in an investigation, sure, but early on especially, dangerous to use constantly, for to get highly detailed information, one has to push, and statistically speaking, one in four pushes leads to bad things . A Librarian who takes these powers (especially most of them) is dedicating himself to the role of being an investigator, and should not be punished for his decision, unless you similarly punish any psyker who takes combat powers. Published adventures are nice, but they never, ever take into account every possible group that might undertake them. That's where the GM comes in, choosing adventures that would fit his group nicely, and making alterations tailored to suit his group. The adventure has an event should the players have too simple a time, but if you don't want to use that, you're free to come up with something else.

Now that that's out of my system, of course, the warp is in fact fickle. To that end, one thing you might do as a GM is, when the player rolls his dice, roll a d100 yourself, and on, say, doubles, reverse the tens and ones digit of the player's roll. Just to mess with them.

LeBlanc13 said:

I doubt many SW players will choose SW powers. SW powers suck, save Fury of the Wolf Spirits. To waste XP and 2-3 of the precious few pyschic power advances on SW powers is a complete waste.

I'm playing a SW Runepriest and the first power I choose was Augury. Of course its power level is dependent on the GM, but hopefully the GM will balance the power. Not giving out too much, but not making me wish I had choose another power either.

There is definitely a fine line to walk.

SpawnoChaos said:

CptCaine said:

Reassuring....very reassuring.

This may just come down to me telling the player of the Rune Priest if he chooses the divination path he may not always get what he's looking for and end the conversation with "Buyer Beware!"

CptCaine said:

I disagree. Let's take Living Lightning for example. Say you 're playing final sanction and face a bunch of nasty hordes. If you decide to push the power once and nothing evil happens to you, you dish out 6 points (at Rank 1) of magnitude damage each round guaranteed . Storm Caller is excellent against a bunch of mooks/hordes too. Say, you cast it fettered. That -10 to hit (at Rank 1) will hurt the enemy hordes in Final Sanction severely. The kill-team will hardly be bothered.

What I am trying to say is: FotWS is the only power you can use without having to think much about how to use it best. It doesn't mean the other powers are useless. Living Lightning can also be used to throw 6D10 (at Rank1) at a Demon Prince every turn if you are willing to take the Psychic Phenomena roll once .

Alex

The way I handle a lot of divination powers is the same way as an investigation skill. Want to track someone? Sure you're going to get a general direction just like track plus it's not like the target stays still. Find an ambush? Sure it's just like an awareness roll. Want to know who killed this guy? It's just like any investigation roll.

If I want a mystery it's not hard right of the top of my head

nulls

hive mind

warp contaimentation

various human and xeno tech designed to protect ftom the warp

Also Eldar and the like have had to to deal with psykers for longer than humanity has been in the stars. A mere Librarian isn't likely to have tricks they haven't seen before. They are likely to mask things, set psykic traps, or send misleading visions.

To deal with Extraction, I think the best course of action is to reveal what direction the Magus is in, but also the existence of the Imperial Guard and their immediate peril, and put the two in opposite directions, forcing the kill team to make a difficult decision.

I would like to point out that; arguably, the most accomplished diviners in the 40K universe; the Eldar Farseers, still do not see the future clearly. They see possibilities and follow the strands of fate towards the future they believe is best for their people.

" That's the problem with precognition, ninety percent of the time it's only 50/50."
Trance Gemini; Andromeda

-=Brother Praetus=-

Just wanted to add to what's been said, because this has been such an interesting thread to read. I think part of the point of the divination powers is that they're affected by the warp but also by the person who's doing the divining and like Praetus mentioned they deal with probabilities, and it reminds me of the Dune series of books, where sometimes following the clearest path is inviting damnation.

For example, when I was reading one of LeBlanc13's examples with the Governor, the first roll involved reading the governor and his demeanor. The first thing that came to mind for the next roll was to say that the Space Marines were the greatest negative opposition. Which could be interpreted several ways and might even fit in even if the Governor was corrupt, because how the Space Marine's deal with something can positively or negatively affect their outcome. If they've been predisposed by the first roll, for example, into thinking the Governor is a traitor; yet you as a GM know that dealing with the Governor will be better for them than blasting him. Then it comes to reason that the greatest threat right now are the SM's themselves and their rash way of acting. Even if they do go ahead an execute the Governor, dropping hints that they complicated things needlessly by following the Librarian's readings can make them reflect more closely on the matter.

Divining truly shines when you can make the players start doubting it, despite it being right 90% of the time. It's like tapping a phone line, it will work as long as the people you're tapping don't know they're being heard, but what happens when they do know? What happens when the Warp plays a joke on you? I would slowly work it into the game that way. Is this prophesy going to be the one that puts them into trouble? The main take away here is that they can't rely solely on divination, they have to validate it with something else. And that's where the other players (and abilities) get a chance to shine.

The main thing though isn't nerfing the Librarian's power, by leading them on with false prophecies, always make them at least tangentially useful yet always tinged with a bit of warp.

For example, with Extraction they might decipher the precise location of the Magos, but it's the getting to the Magos that's the problem. The power seems to work in the "as the crow flies" manner, so they might very well be walk in the right direction, but perhaps the Magos is underground, burrowed in some underground cave under one of the complexes. So the location might be known, but finding how to get there is the problem.

Even small details when revealed exactly can make the Divination powers more interesting. Take the Magos example again, in this case the GM tells the players that the Magos is 50m north. So they go 50 meters in a northern direction, yet since the Magos is underground 50 meters is the direct route to the Magos, through the ground. To get to the top of him they would have to wak 30m or 40m (depending on how you want to place the triangle). So once again, the power isn't rendered useless, but it's not overpowering to the extreme.

Basically, as a GM you just end up switching what variable the players have to resolve in the equation.

For example a result of Augury might reveal that the best tool for the job is something that they don't have or can't get access to immediately. So the challenge then becomes how to get that something.

Going back to the Governor example, who's to say the Governor isn't scared shitless because he's faced with Space Marines? Maybe everyone in the room is scared out of their mind and rightfully believe that the Kill-Team is their biggest threat even if they are innocent. Or maybe they're scared for the wrong reasons, maybe they believe the Deathwatch are after them for different reasons. Maybe they are guilty of some heresy, just not a heresy that's relevant to the mission at hand.

I mean granted, I wouldn't make every Divination a complex riddle, filled with uncertainty. Just when I don't want to have the story advance so quickly or when I want to throw a complication in the player's direction. Sometimes I'd be happy they had a Divination Librarian just so they could speed through some areas and not waste time with dead-ends.

To me, the biggest pain in the butt with divination style powers (across any game line, really), is the pre-work it makes me do as a GM. But that's where I think the key really lies. I used to hate them and houserule them out of my games as they really did feel like they ruined the game. But then I found that there are many other powers that players can posess that if you don't understand them fully, you'll feel the same way (what, you did HOW much magnitude damage to that horde?!).

If you know your player is going to have powers to see into the future, read minds, etc, then you need to be prepared with what/how will be revealed, and preferably written in cryptic messages. They'll surprise you, for sure, and force you to think on your feet in unpleasant ways, but with some extra writing and planning up front you can turn what feels like a game breaking experience into an avenue to feed your players directions, etc.

The other examples and ideas on this thread I think are all pretty good- keep them guessing, add a little bit of false info, do something with the die rolls (double rolls, roll for them, etc) so that you can abstract the player knowledge from the character knowledge a little better.

If all else fails, and you don't have the time/drive/desire/capacity/whatever to do the up front work and you're like me and aren't always the fastest on your feet when the players pull the rug from you, outlaw them in your game or simply tell the players up front they'll be of little use. Whatever you do don't let your players build up a specialty that you don't like and will intentionally or unintentionally make useless.

My advice is this, as it states the GM gives as much information as he is willing to, think about how much is alot of information but as others have said use narrative elements to also pose problems such as giving a (-20) to the relevant skill, for instance in Extraction, the fact that the tyranids distort the Vox systems, poses whither they could even distort the warp messages and information from the Librarians psychic abilities, so they may only get fragmented imagery of information, and depending on how well they did may depend on how vivid and un-distorted the information is retrieved at, in worst case scenarios it maybe that all they see is a dark and forboding shadows of the vicious Tyranids, its not nerfing it as it would be the same for any Librarian who entered the playing field, but its adding narrative depth and a challenge for the players, maybe there are certain ways via roleplaying the team could make it easier on the Librarian to get information. The possabilities are endless and its not nerfing, but making it an enjoyable game for everyone. The worst you could do is allow the Librarian to gather the whereabouts of the data instantaniously, head straight there and game over, I feel the Librarian player would hate you more for doing that

hope this advice helped

ak-73 said:

The other SW powers suck not because they require thinking, because they are limited in application. Augury requires thinking and yet is still a useful power. You just can't ask the DM: "Hey, I'm going to Augury what's around the corner"; Dm response: "A hallway". Living Lightning sucks because it requires all of the following: the players have to be outside under an open sky; it's only useful in combat; and the target is allowed an Agility test (that does not count as a dodge) to take half damage.

Dan.

CptCaine said:

It can be used in Final Sanction against hordes, it can be used in the first half of Oblivion's Edge (same setting). It can be used in Extraction and from what I have read it can be used in the scenario of the GM kit.

Only useful in combat isn't much of a limitation given the setting. Outside under open sky is where about half of the fights are likely going to happen in most campaigns. And the Agility test is an advantage because it's likely that this is the dodge (it would be silly to allow another AG-based test to avoid damage altogether especially against flashes of lightning coming out of the sky). You don't get any dodge bonus (you don't see the origin of the attack) and you only get half damage at best.

Alex

One of the main asset of divination powers for GM is the fact that the psyker doing it doesn't know if the future he is seing is the one where they acted or not.

Does the divination tell what is happening if the group follow his path or is it the what would come to pass if they don't .

your player are on the field and the librarian try to guess what is coming and see the end of the world they are because the army will be badly lead. So they decide to change the general in place and see the new one falling in his duty and the world is lost. maybe if they had just help the former general the planet will still be ressisting to the invasion.

More, maybe the choice revealed by divination isn't easy or simple to do.

Like in the end of the haarlock trilogy for DH where the players can choose two future for the sector and there's no better choice in all the possibility there's always a dark future.

Btw glad for you to not be Mage the ascension GM, because if you speack about magic and how it could be to handle it as GM just take a look at what a mage can do even a low xp level.

Thebigjul said:

If the Thousand Sons novel is to be believed as canon, then they can predict things that are going to happen if they take NO action. In this fashion, they were able to steer their landing craft out of the way of an incoming shell that would have destroyed them in mid-flight. They used this tactic frequently and with much success.

in this case the thousand sons predict near future wich is really easyer to divine. And it is the thousand sons, really specialized psyker. Each temple has is role to play, every thousand sons is focused on the study of a well define path.

My point was to really look where the psyker goes looking the future... In the tides of the warp, honestly who can trust the warp at 100%.

This has been great discussion.

If nothing else, I feel a bit less worried about the implications of divination. I fully intend to discuss how warp powers will work before getting into play with the Libararian player. He still hasn't determined yet whether he's even going to take divination powers.

Of course, he could be waiting for a nudge from Brother Praetus too.

Thanks!