First off id like to say that Deathwatch is a great book. Now, onto the questions.

Forgive me, I do not have my rulebook in front of me......

1. When you take an oath, are the squad mode abilities listed ones that your squad uses for free or are they the ONLY ones you may purchase?

2. Also, in the beginning of the Oaths section, the book mentions something about how the squad may use the Squad Leaders Chapter abilities, What exactly does that mean?

To me I want to believe that if the Leader uses his chapter abilities, the rest of the squad may take part in the effects of the ability.

I want to think that the chapter abilities are more than all but useless... I know that the Tac marine may do that whole command test but i assumed that it was for when hes not the leader, making it fun for rest of the fellow marines to be squad leader and not suck! THANKS!

1) Yep, they're the only ones you can use.

2) Nope, it's still restricted to only members of the same Chapter benefiting. Only with certain abilities (such as the Tactical Marine's "Tactical Expertise") can other Chapters share your Chapter Squad Ability. However, all squad members can activate Squad Abilities, but you can only have one running at once in the squad).

ok well then oaths are not for me! ^-^

Interesting. My read through of the rules was that the other members of the squad were able to use the Squad Leaders Chapter ability regardless of Chapter, but the rest couldn't share their Chapter Abilities unless they were a Tac Marine.

I'll have to read through again to ensure I get it right.

Casamyr said:

I came to the same conclusion.

orkboss13 said:

1. You're using odd semantics here. When you say "Purchase" are you talking as if this is before the mission starts? As in you spend cohesion before a mission starts to acquire abilities to be used throughout the mission (which would be way off from what is RAW). Anyway, yes, the only powers available to the squad are those detailed in the oath selected. Also, I am fairly certain an oath MUST be selected (as in there is no way to have access to all squad mode abilities, because really, the oath bonuses are kinda crappy, but having access to all powers == win). Also, a clarification, anyone can use squad mode powers (its not clear you got that detail). Finally, as per the errata thread, Sustained powers do not cost cohesion after their first activation, for the rest of the mission, non sustained powers do not cost cohesion for the rest of the encounter

2. Paraphrased from the errata/FAQ post on the main page: Every squad member can use their individual chapter ability. These only effect members of the same chapter, except when tactical expertise from a tac marine is used. Even then, these abilities are actually pretty good, so they shouldn't be considered "useless"

Basically, the leader exists to determine cohesion pool size, take fear checks for the squad, have the roleplaying role of the leader, and selects the oath. Past that, they don't really do much, at least in the squad power mechanics, as that is open to everyone. Support range is measured from the initiator of the power, to other members in squad.

Feel free to houserule that the leader can use his chapter power on the rest of the squad, but that then makes a tac marine with tac expertise kinda weaker. Right now, its not too bad the way it is.

KommissarK said:

And there can only be one squad mode ability active at a given time? And if a non-sustained ability has a limited duration stated in its description (Holy Vengeance, Fury of Sanguinius), it doesn't last for the entire combat? Right? If so, can it be triggered again for the current encounter by paying the Cohesion cost? (Lightning Strike is only once per combat, btw.)

Alex

There can be more than one active (as per my reading at least), just an individual character can only benefit from one ability. On their turn they can either join an ability that is sustained that they did not join at the start of it (and leave their current ability), leave their current ability so they are free to participate in a new one about to be activated, or activate a new ability (and provide a benefit to those who currently have their "squad action" this turn).

And yes on the rest, duration is by description at the end of the day (and amount of times it can be used). But I'm fairly certain the cost mechanics remain the same, and apply to the top description of sustained/non sustained, not the body of the description.

KommissarK said:

The whole section is so unclearly written, it's best to put RAW aside and go by common sense and intuition. Commonly a good idea too.

Alex

This has been an interesting topic to read.

pg 228 of the rule book clearly states this: Under Oath Taking:

In addition to the list Codex Squad Mode abilities the Kill-team will also have access to their leader's Chapter Squad Mode abilities.

I think this single sentence has made it confusing to all when the rules also state that Chapter's cannot use other Chapters abilities, unless they are a tac Marine, in which case they can share their ability with the rest of the Squad if they pass a Command Check.

I'd be inclined to follow this an allow the Squad Leader to share his Chapter's ability with the rest of the Squad.

Casamyr said:

To quote an email response by Ross Watson:

"Any member of the squad is able to activate Chapter squad mode
abilities. Only members of the same Chapter can benefit from Chapter
squad mode abilities. Certain abilities (such as the Tactical
Marine's Tactical Expertise) can allow members of different Chapters
to use a Chapter ability."

Alex

I have an additional point of consideration. Abilities like Unrelenting Devastation of the Dev Marine can only be used in Squad Mode. That means if the squad wants to make use of that ability they cannot use a squad mode ability of a different chapter (unless a Tactical Marine initiates it). Somewhat limiting.

Alex

ak-73 said:

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the powers from specialties are not classed as "powers" for the purpose of squad mode/solo mode abilities.

In other words, they can stack, etc. At least, thats my reading.

KommissarK said:

They can stack but my player's Ultramarine Dev can only use Unrelenting Dev in squad mode. If the leader is a DA Librarian and triggers Immovable Defense, he can't take part in that. Perhaps it could be argued that he's still in squad mode but just doesn't get the benefits of the DA's tactics (and therefore no squad mode bonus at all other than the ability to still be able to use Unrelenting Dev)?

Alex

I'd be inclined to follow KommisarK's thought on this. The abilities of the class don't count for all intents as purposes as Squad Powers. You just can't use them unless you're in the appropriate mode.

The other side of the coin would be to look at other Classes Squad Abilities - it would truely nerf them. The Tac Marine could activate his Tactical Expertise ability, but then couldn't activate his squad ability to share it with the rest of the Kill-team as you can only have one activated ability per marine.

Going back the to Devastator example: A Dev can only use Unrelenting Devastation while in squad mode, but he can still use any other activated Squad Mode abilities. I'd even go so far to state that he could even activate a Squad Mode/Chapter ability and still be able to use Unrelenting Dev.

KommissarK said:

I just re-read the squad mode confusion topic and the confusion isn't entirely lifted over here yet. To quote a reply from Ross Watson:

"Q: Can different abilities be sustained by different squad members at the same time?

A: No."

Now the wording is interesting. This creates a follow-up question: Can multiple non-sustained squad abilities be used at the same time by different members? Does anyone have the answer to that here?

Alex

ak-73 said:

I've read that, but I think that just makes for 'griefing' where one player can prevent another player from maintaining a Squad power. Ex. Player A activates Squad Advance on his turn, costing a half action. Player B decides to activate Tooth and Nail as a Free Action that only effects himself. Player A would now have to re-pay the half action cost to re-activate the Squad Advance power.

Even after reading the FAQ thread and squad mode confusion thread, I still think the whole Squad mode section is terribly broken. Many of the powers are quite ridiculous in power level (a Free action gives a Rank 4 BT assault marine in the neighborhood of 9 attacks per round for an entire combat? DA Devastators get 2 Full Auto bursts per round for an entire mission?) . The rules are a mess with tons of loopholes, bad examples, and inconsistencies.

I have to agree, RAW, this is a nightmare.

But personally, I love the intent with it, and don't see it working to bad with the right judgement calls on the part of the GM. The key is to make it "fair," and discourage metagaming/griefing.

It took me a while to figure this answer from Ross out, but I finally got it don't have an issue with it. In fact I'd go so far to say that only the Squad Leader should be the one to activate Sustained Abilities, which does stuff him from using his Chapter Ability which could well be a small price to pay for being Squad Leader.

I also think that Multiple non-sustained abilities are capable of being used, though often I doubt you'd have more than 1 or 2 going at any time since you'd burn through your cohesion points pretty quickly and that'll be the ultimate decider.

ak-73 said:

Except that this email response doesn't answer the question. We all know that "certain abilities" (such as the Tactical Marine's Tactical Expertise) allow members of different Chapters to use a Chapter Ability.

What we are asking is whether or not the rule listed on pg. 228 ("In addition to the listed Codex Squad Mode abilities the Kill-team will also have access to their leader's Chapter Squad Mode abilities.") is ALSO a "certain ability" that allows members of different Chapters to use a Chapter Ability.

If it doesn't allow Marines to benefit from a Chapter Squad Mode ability from a different Chapter than their own (the leader's), then what does it do ?

Also, I'm still unclear about whether a Marine can activate a Chapter Squad mode ability from another Marine's Chapter (or sustain it). Ross Watson's email clearly states that "ANY member of the squad is able to activate Chapter squad mode abilities" (emphasis mine). That means that the Blood Angel Assault Marine can activate the Ultramarine Tactical Marine's Squad Mode ability, and can then benefit from it (thanks to the Tactical Expertise rule). This seems really odd.

My own personal feelings would be:

Marines can only activate or sustain Squad Mode Abilities which are Codex, or from their parent Chapter.

Marines can only personally benefit from Squad Mode Abilities which are Codex, or from their parent Chapter.

The Leader of a Kill Team can allow all members of the Kill-Team to benefit from the Chapter Squad Mode abilities from his chapter (but not activate them).

A Tactical Marine can allow the members of the Kill-team to benefit from the Chapter Squad Mode abilities from his Chapter, but not activate them.

That way, there's a benefit for being the leader, regardless of Chapter. Only the Tactical Marine does not get this benefit, as he already ALWAYS has it, whether or not he is the Leader.

However, you could the third proposition (Leader Chapter Squad Mode access) without messing anything up, but you would have to officially exterminate that sentence on 228. Otherwise, it does something.

Brother-Sergeant Cloten said:

My reading:

"Any member of the squad is able to activate Chapter squad mode abilities."

= Not just the team leader can initiate them but also regular brothers of the same chapter.

"Only members of the same Chapter can benefit from Chapter squad mode abilities."

= Members of different chapters don't get anything out of it.

"Certain abilities (such as the Tactical Marine's Tactical Expertise) can allow members of different Chapters to use a Chapter ability."

= Tactical Expertise can break down the barriers, there might be other abilities (in the future) who something similar. But without special

abilitiy -like TE- it's not possible to benefit from different chapters.

They are hopefully working on a mechanic where an experienced kill-team can benefit from different chapter powers. Perhaps a Deathwatch Training Talent.

Alex

Brother-Sergeant Cloten said:

First, my reading of p228 was that the only chapter ability that may be used would be the leaders, and that as per p219, it would only effect that chapter's members.

I would rule that the email response overrides the sentence on p228. The wording on p219 clearly states that only marines of the same chapter can use/benefit from chapter abilities, and p228 makes no attempt to even state that (it states the pool of available powers, not the ones they can be affected by), while p85 is very clear on what tactical expertise allows.

The main fear (in my understanding of the problem) that Ross was addressing was that the only chapter power that would be available during a mission was that of the squad leader, and that even then, it would only benefit their chapter members (as per the reading of p228). By saying that anyone can activate their own chapters squad powers, they will all see some amount of use, as they are all situationally very good, even if it only benefits one member.

Overall, the current method of everyone can use their own chapter powers really should be good enough. Allowing the squad leader to use his chapter ability on all (or even allowing all to activate the leader's ability) really cuts into tac marines with tac expertise and their ability to take the spotlight from time to time.

Also, do remember that not all tac marines have tac expertise. But in the cases of those that do, in the example you gave, what benefit would they get as a squad leader?