Lightning Claws seem incredibly underwhelming in comparison to a Thunder Hammer (and, given the errata for Into the Storm that has the weak model specifically designed for unaugmented humans to wield receiving a doubling of strength bonus on top of extant qualities leading me to anticipate this change for the Deathwatch model Thunder Hammer as well) and the Power Fist.

The Lightning Claw's low damage seems like the cherry on top of essentially losing the use of the hand, and the increase of the fine manipulation penalty to -20. The additional damage per degree of success does not seem attractive, and it seems almost unthinkable to dual-wield the things given what they do to a character's ability to have any degree of manual dexterity (the discount on a second Lightning Claw is nice, I admit, but I still balk at spending 45 requisition to get a pair, which, really, to gain much utility out of I must have the Two-Weapon Wielder talent). I suppose it cannot be dismissed that Lightning Claws are weapons one can employ to Parry, which is not an inconsiderable advantage for a melee focused character likely to have invested significantly in increasing Weapons Skill (for my part, however, I would take a Combat Shield from Into the Storm and take advantage of its Defensive property and added armour, or perhaps even an Astartes Combat Shield - both of which allow the use of the hand of the arm they are attached to, which to my mind makes them attractive in pairing with a Thunder Hammer or Power Fist).

Of course, it cannot be understated that my skill in mathematics is not especially strong, and that I often have difficulty in seeing the larger picture, so I come to you prepared, in good faith , to be illuminated. I fully expect that there is some combination of Talents that I have failed to consider renders this choice particularly attractive, or that when the mathematics are laid bare I will see how well the Lightning Claws actually perform in practice.

MegaDandy said:

Or consider two thunder hammers. Lightning Claws only become really good when you get to have a buffed WS of 80+ because then you'll have the necessary successes to tear your enemies to shreds. To be fair, the weapon description says that it's for senior close combat specialists. Still it means you'll have to squeeze every bonus to WS you can get out of the game to make them outperform the thunder hammers.

Alex

Let's take a rank 3 Blood Angel Assault Marine :

_Two weapon wielder

_Dual Parry (I don't remember exact name of the talent : Wall of steel ?)

_Flesh Render

_Lightning attack

_Crushing blow

_Frenzy & battle rage

_CC 60 & Strength 50 (=SB12)

And he's waiting for the blademaster advance which comes at rank 6, but though :

Per round : if both frenzied & blood frenzied => 4 attacks at CC70 and 2 parry attempts at CC70 too

Let's be more or less statistical and say the Marine will roll 01, 33, 66 and 100 to hit, which is 3 times out of 4 attacks, with DoS = 6, 3 & 0, that makes (without any damage dice or righteous fury) : 34(pen8), 28(pen8), 22(pen8), then add the dice.

Each attack will impact with 1D10+22(pen8) +2 per DoS. But the "1D10" is in fact the best of 3D10, that can be rerolled, and any 9 or 10 indicates a righteous fury, automatically confirmed against Xenos. To get a 9 or 10 (1 chance out of 5) on 6 dice gets a probability of : 1-[(4/5)^6] = 74% to get a righteous fury.

Without any proper maths, we can figure the three damage dice results could be something like : 8, 9, 10 (because 74% to get at least one 9+ with 6D10, and 89% of getting at least a 8+ on 6D10).

I won't calculate the chances to get multiple righteous fury if you follow the basic rules (which are reroll all dice and add again all bonuses !), but even with a lowered righteous fury as I play it (I only add dice again), taking a average of 8 and no other righteous fury (which is really under stats), it makes :

34+8 = 42(pen8)

28+9+8 = 45 (pen8)

22+10+8 = 40 (pen8)

At such a high rate, and if you try taking into account the multiple righteous furies such as ruled in the book (which would imply add again +28 for attack n°2 and +22 for attack n°3), you will see that a hive tyrant will probably survive no more than one round in solo combat against your Assault Marine.

Lightning claws can really be awesome, may be too much if you follow the basic rules of righteous fury!

Quileurbist said:

Make the same calculation for two thunder hammers please. <g>

Alex

ak-73 said:

Twin thunder hammers! I think someone needs a time out.

Some captains or chapter masters are sometimes represented with two thunderhammers (TH) for the TT game. But you are right, it is very rare...

In fact, I won't calculate the whole thing for two TH, but I can see three major differences for TH :

_it is unwieldy, so no double parry, which is a great advantage of the pair of lightning claws, and step aside comes much more later (rank 6?) than wall of steel (rank 3)

_TH are not composed of blades, so no reroll with blademaster (actually, I find a bit silly that this talent only works for blades, because no equivalent exists for "hammermaster", but unless I change it in my game, it is a significant difference)

_in terms of damage amount, the best dice from three ten sided dice ([3D10]->1D10) +6 is exchanged for 2D10+5, so there is a 1D10-1 of difference. Which means you will have significantly less righteous furies, but your average damage without RF will be a little bit higher : a more stable weapon actually. The use of Blood Frenzy and flesh render emphasizes the interest of lightning claws towards TH.

If the same Blood Angel Assault marine uses the two TH in Blood Frenzy, his chances of getting a RF will be of 59% (74% for claws), and then it depends which version of RF you use (reroll and add all, which adds further interest to Claws, or just add one die, which levels the RF advantage).

Without Blood Frenzy, the chances to get a RF are 28% for claws with Flesh Render and 19% for TH.

Concussive adds a little advantage in favour of TH, but I prefer a double parry using the frenzy bonus and the quality of the weapon instead of a single dodge!

RF question:

In the book RF dmg roll is with all the original dices AND all the bonus as well. Is that mean you can count the "hit" dmg bonus of the claws 2-3 times as RF proc?

Bcsordas said:

Yes but I don't play it that way. I will only allow all 10s to be re-rolled for RF.

Alex

Bcsordas said:

As Alex said, yes, it is written that way.

But as he said, I'd rather too not play it like that, because if you take my example with twin claws, it gives an average damage score of something like 70 for each strike, if no more than one RF is triggerred, which is scarcely the case for three hits, because with 74% of getting another one, you are likely to have at least one or two out of three hits with RF which will trigger a second RF, so the damage will be around : 3D10 (with 8/9/10 for each dice result) + (3 x 30), for an amount of approximately 110-120 for at least one or two hits...

This is why I said even a hive tyrant won't survive more than one round against such a Marine... Which, at least for me, seems a bit ridiculous.

Power fist

why?

x2 str bonus from unnatural strength and the power fist puts that up to x3 then the power fist adds x2 str bonus to damage add to that a melee weapon in the other had and u can parry.

So my BA Assault Marine has a str of 53 so his bonus is +10

Power Armor adds +20 str (str 73) so his bonus is now +12

Add power fist (x3 str Bonus(x2 unnatural str and power fist makes it x3 multiplier) so damage bonus is +17 (with the +20 from armor).

Power fist gives x2 str Bonus when adding to melee damage so i make that 2d10+34 when in frenzy that gos up to 2d10+37.

One last thing the power fist also has a Pen of 9.

And looking at that I hope I have not read it right or done some bad maths.

Now I have read it again the damage is 2d10+17 or 2d10+20 when in frenzy

Sadly Power Fist cannot be used to parry, thats big drawback.

no but u can have a power fist and and a 2nd weapon that u can use to parry with say something like a power sword.

A dedicated off-hand parrying weapon also means you won't get any ranged ability. If you want to focus on 100% melee, then twin-lightning claws on an assault marine is the best combination due the jumppack.

For a non-assault melee specialist you'd probably either want a shield in off-hand to "parry" or a pistol for ranged ability (or heck, even a basic weapon as astartes can fire them one-handed without penalty, just not in melee). In former instance most likely a thunderhammer and stormshield (specially if a Stormwarden), in the latter most likely a powerfist/sword and a plasma or melta pistol.

Ultimately though it comes down to personal preference. Deathwatch isn't about rolling the most dice and killing everything - you should look at D&D 4e or Exalted if you want that from an RPG. Deathwatch is much more about personal development, unit-level relationships and ultimately what impact you can have on the incessant threats to the Imperium of man.

We had our apothecary insta-kill a Hive tyrant in one full auto burst of his bolt gun, because the Righteous Fury rules are totally unblanced in RAW, so personally i wouldn't factor RF into how effective a weapon is. As such we re-wrote them to be based on your to-hit roll and not your damage roll. I'll get them posted up later once we've tested them some more.

1st off all Space Marines have Quick Draw so u could use a ranged weapon then it and pull out the weapons you want to go into melee with or in the case of lighting claws u could have a Bolter or Storm Bolter mounted on one of them.

2nd ur right about the rpg part of the game lets face it we are not playing a game of 40k but at the same time u have to make the char good at his speiaciaity or he will not do very well.

as a blood angel assault marine with a 55 for WS at beginning and +20 for advances and 50 for strength +20 for advances with frenzy blood frenzy and feat of strength at rank 3 with crushing blow and lightning attack I got following statistics with an equipment of standard armour and 2 lightning claws

0.75*(1d10+40 tearing(best of 6))+0.75* [0.74*1d10+40(best of 6)] (reapeat square brackets for every RF)

this is the statistical damage for every single attack..

and this lasts damage values are 2 consecutive rounds per mission (at rank 3)

statistically yes it kills a hive tyrant

0.75 is to hit % with 75ws dual wiled(-10) and frenzy (+10) and no combat modifiers

+40damage is 70strength+10 for frenzy means strength bonus of 8 *3 (feat of strength)+2(armour strength bonus) +2(crushing blow)+6 (weapon)+6(average of the bonus damage from lightning claws based on 75 WS)

2nd 0.75 is the chance to confirm RF which is calculated before getting a 9 or 10 because it is more simple concerning the formula

0.74 is the chance to get at least one 9 or 10 for six dice (flesh render+tearing menas 3 dice which are rerollable if you aint got a 9 or 10 which makes 6 dice for mathematical purposes to get a 9 or 10)

power fists loose 4 base damage on lightning claws (6 from weapon and an average 6 for the special ability of lightning claws vs additional 8 damage from another unnatural strength) and get 1 more pen as in 11 instead of 10 (feat of strength) while having only a 20%RF chance instead of ~74%


chainfists of course are only 4 damage behind lightning claws for an even better RF probability

I could be wrong but all bonuses to strength get added in after unnatural strength. Also with WS 75 you have on average more like 2 degrees of success. But then again a Hive Tyrant is Massive (+30). He might be able to parry though, depending on GM.

But otoh look at what Heavy Bolters can do to a Hive Tyrant. And let's not forget: you have been pouring your xp to max out melee abilities at rank 3.

Anyway fights against Elite-class enemies generally work this way in DW: the enemy appears and you kill it within 1 or 2 rounds or it will start ripping the kill-team apart, from head to toe.

Alex

The only strength bonus that specifies it is added after Unnatural is from power armor, which is because it is from an outside source and not part of your Unnatural strength. I don't see any reason why the Frenzy bonus shouldn't apply before the multiplier. It's only a different of 2 damage anyway.

Regardless, essentially lightning claws are great for Blood Angels (due to Flesh Render/RF ability) and everyone else is better off with power fists or power first/power sword, if you want to parry.

However, you are correct in that the Devastator can paste a tyrant at rank 1.

Radomo said:

From what I have read here on the forums the general default assumption is that addition comes after multiplication when such is concerned.

Alex

This argument again? *sigh*

Yes, basic order of operations place multiplication before addition. But, it's not that clear cut. You can easily write the formula (SB + modifiers)x2 + Power armor. Without context, saying all addition is after multiplication doesn't make sense. You could, of course, make a case that Frenzy should not be affected by Unnatural, and that would be fine. But, pointing at order of operations is not going to cut it.

Take Storm of Iron, Unrelenting devastation, and a heavy bolter. Storm of Iron doubles all Magnitude damage. Unrelenting adds 1 for each hit. A heavy bolter is X so it adds one. Is it (hits x 2 (Storm)) x 2 (Unrelenting) + 1 or (hitsx2 (Unrelenting) +1)x2 (Storm), hits x 3 + 1, etc. Make it a blast weapon instead. Is it (hits + 1d5) x 2 + 1 or hits x 2 + 1d5 + 1?

Radomo said:

I know. All I said was that the one reply of Ross Watson indicated (merely indicated) that the default order is multiplication before addition unless otherwise noted.

It wouldn't be completely stupid to use this order either because that way you can cut down on a lot of attempts at munchkinism (not saying this about anyone here to be sure) where people try to get another modifier before multiplication, etc. And quite frankly - curbing a bit on the damage output of such a rank 3 BA Assault isn't too bad a thing either (from a GM's perspective, not from a player's).

Alex

Modifiers for Unnatural most certainly are a point of contention amongst many, but it's quite easy.

Unnatural modifies your raw attribute, so for example a Strenght 45 space marine with Unnatural Strength x2 would have a bonus of 8, which is simple enough. The armour bonus of +20 is an attribute bonus, so is not multiplied but added afterwards. Strength (45 x 2)+20 in effect. It means for purposes of testing against your Strength attribute, you have an effective 65, but for puposes of your Strength bonus it is 10 (4x2 then +another2). It can take a while to get used to how Unnatural works, especially if you've not played previous games of DH or RT with characters getting access to the, admitedly rare, options of obtaining Unnatural.

Just an idea, given no one either thought of it or it just didn't get mentioned.

Assault Marine with average 45 Strength attribute and equipped with Powerfist , Combat Shield and Bolt Pistol .

• Powerfist - 2d10+SB E; Pen 9; Power,Unwieldy . Average modified SB in PA is 14.
• Combat Shield - 1d5+1+SB I; Pen 0; Balanced, Field . Strapped to the arm, leaves hand free to wield weapon or do other things. Also 25% to negate an attack entirely.
• Bolt Pistol - 2d10+5 X; Pen 5; 30m; Tearing . If you tend to use Kraken Rounds , like I prefer, then Pen ups to 8 and range to 45m.

If you've got the TWW (Ballistic/Melee) talents; both being available at Rank 1, then you can even more effectively deliver the Emperor's wrath upon His foes. Swift Attack is an automatic freebie for the Assault Marine , and Lightning Attack comes in at Rank 2. Once you hit Rank 8, and you pick up Preternatural Speed you can get really destructive in those one-on-one boss type fights with a charging maelstrom of attacks, and Whirlwind of Death makes for a bad day for any hordes you're diving into.

Though, I still think I would rather the paired Lightning Claws myself, it's more a matter of preference and how one wants to play it out.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Brother Praetus said:

At rank 7+, I refer you to Boruta's destroyer of worlds combo: BA Assault with frenzy, flesh renderer and blood frenzy wielding dual chainswords for a world full of hurt. This stuff just stacks too much. Players should never be able to Righteous Fury on 8+. Never.

Alex

ak-73 said:

I don't know, paired Lightning Claws I think would still be better along the lines of that build example. They're also Tearing , have a Power Field and do extra damage with extra degrees of success on the attack. Add a couple wrist-mounted Bolt Pistols into the mix and see where things go. Even with the range reduction you've still got some decent punch to add to a firing line.

Still, I don't try to break the system within the rules, so much as come up with interesting ideas I would like to play around with. My original character idea for the DW game I am getting into was for a Wolf Scout ; Space Wolf Tac Marine focused on stealth and recon type abilities. Instead, built an Iron Priest ; Space Wolf Techmarine, as it seemed more something the group would benefit from.

-=Brother Praetus=-