I've looked around and couldn't find the answer to this, sorry if I missed it.

The +20 Bonus to Strength from power armour applies after Unnatural Strength for determining Strength Bonus, no problem there.

The question I'm struggling to answer from one of my players (I've only ever played 1 game of Dark Heresy before this and our GM wanted a break from running games).. Does the +20 get used for making Strength Checks etc?

So if a character has say 45 Strength base they would have 65 for working out checks while in power armour?

I've looked over all the example characters and the examples I could find in the book and it never confirms either way.

Thanks

Yes, it does count for strength checks. If it was strength bonus only, it would say 'adds +2 to your strength bonus.' Don't forget that Unnatural Str x2 gives a +10 to strength checks or a bonus DoS for opposed checks (or at least they did in DH/RT. I admit I haven't read the Unnatural Characteristic rules in DW to see if they differ).

Technically (if I am remebering correctly) Unnatural Characteristics actually makes the test one difficulty step easier per multiplier, rather than a +10 bonus. Most of the time this is exactly the same thing, but it means it doesn't count for the maximum +/-60% on difficulty modifiers and it can have certain other effects on things like associated Investigation skills.

Pg.161 Enhanced Strength. Increase the Battle-Brother's Strength by +20. The effect on SB is calculated after the Unnatural Strength multiplier.

I think that while using power armor (basically, always), their effective strength should be modified by the armor for all Strength tests.

The SB IS calculated after the Unnatural Str (2x).

My group just made their 1st characters last night and the way we did was this. Base Str of 44 gives you a 4 SB. With power armor would give you 64 Str and a 6 SB which is an increase of 2 (obviously) but the original SB of 4 modified by unnatural str turns it into an 8. THEN you apply the SB from the power armor (2) giving you a final SB of 10.

I didnt read anything about it making checks easier other than the obvious reason that your SB is higher. Im pretty sure it doesn't modify the check at all, just gives you a better chance to succeed.

rodeoclownjihad said:

Strength bonus is irrelevant when making a Strength Test (i.e. rolling under Strength Characteristic). Unnatural Characteristics (pg 136) gives a bonus DoS in opposed test or lowers the base difficulty of the test one level (essentially +10 to the test, unless the difficulty modifier is already at +30).

So, a Marine in Power armor with base Str of 45 making a Challenging (+0) Strength test to force open a stuck door (or whatever) would adjust the difficulty by one step to +10. The final target would be 45 + 20 (Power Armor) + 10 (Unnatural Str) = 75.

If the Marine were grappling with an ork with Str bonus 50, the marine would roll against 65. If successful, he would get 1 bonus DoS. If both the marine and the ork scored the same DoS, including the marine's bonus DoS, the Marine would win the check due to his Unnatural Strength. If the marine were Grappling another Marine, and tied DoS, the one with the higher Strength bonus would win (including Unnatural and Power Armor adjustments).

So are you saying that the Unnatural Str (x2) trait for the purpose of characteristic tests just decreases the difficulty by one step?

Then what is the SB used for? (I dont have a great deal of exp with this rpg system)

Radomo said:

Close, but not quite. An Unnatural Characteristic grants a number of bonus Degrees of Success on an Opposed Test equal to the multiplier the trait provides, so Unnatural Strength (x2) grants +2 bonus Degrees of Success, while Unnatural Strength (x4) grants +4 bonus Degrees of Success (meaning that attempting to wrestle a Carnifex is a dangerous prospect, even for a Space Marine).

Also note that modifying the test difficulty and the bonus degrees of success do stack - an Eldar Ranger with Unnatural Agility (x2) counts all Concealment Tests as one-step easier, and gains 2 bonus degrees of success because all Concealment Tests are Opposed by an enemy's Awareness (and similarly, a Kroot with Unnatural Perception (x2) would get the same bonuses to an Awareness Test).

rodeoclownjihad said:

Characteristic Bonuses, of all kinds, aren't used to determine success or failure of a test, but instead are generally used to determine the results of a successful test. Strength Bonus is, for example, most commonly added to the damage values of melee weaponry, while Fellowship Bonus determines how many NPCs a character can affect with his interaction skills at any one time.

do you think maybe you could supply and example please?

Lets say, an Imperial guardsman with a str of 32 SB of 3 is attempting to force open a pressure door. If I'm correct the GM sets the difficulty, so we'll say its a challenging (+0).

A space marine with a base strength of 44 is attempting the same task, His overall Str is 64 and his SB is 10. (because of his power armor and unnatural str (x2)

Other then the obvious that the space marine needs to roll 64 or lower compared to the Guardsman who needs 32 or lower... How is the task easier for the space marine. and/or how does his SB come into play and/or is the difficulty lower from challenging to routine or likewise?

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Yes, you're right. I was confusing a long time house rule where we subtract one from the Unnatural modifier for the bonus DoS (similar to the step bonus adjustment for non-opposed tests). Going from normal strength to Unnatural x2 seemed odd to go from 0 to 2 DoS, but per RAW, that is the correct interpretation.

Are you sure they stack? The example on 136 does not reflect that. It is, however, an opposed Grapple rather than an opposed Skill test. I'd always played that the difficulty step was for non-opposed and the bonus DoS was for opposed.

For rodeo's example, the Marine actually needs to roll under 74, not 64 due to his Unnatural Str giving him a one step decrease in difficulty (from +0 to +10). His strength Bonus does not apply to this test. The test is easier for the Marine as he is twice as likely to pass his test, rather than the guardsman. If DoS are important (usually for Investigations or Opposed checks), he has a higher maximum possible DoS due to the higher target number (7 possible DoS vs 3 for the guardsman, in your example).

Radomo said:

They don't always stack, but there's overlap. The bonus Degrees of Success apply to all Opposed Tests, while the reduced difficulty (Rules as Written, though many people ignore this) applies only to Skill Tests based on that characteristic. A Grapple is the former, but not the latter, so only gets the bonus DoS...

Radomo said:

so Unnatural Characteristics only add or lower the base difficulty of the test one level in passing different Skill Tests, and when SB applies?

rodeoclownjihad said:

For the guardsman, they must roll 32 or less on D100 to open the pressure door.

The Space Marine must roll under a 74 or less.

The Marine gets to make the same strength test as the guardsman but one difficulty less from unnatural strength x2 (so from Challenging to Ordinary, granting a +10 circumstance modifier). This means he has a bse strength characteristic of 44, +20 for Power Armor for 64, + 10 for the test being Ordinary, for a total of 74. If he had unnatural strength x3, he'd have had an additional +10 by moving the test from Challenging down two steps to Routine (-1 step for x2, -1 step for x3).

For OPPOSED tests, it is as No-1 says different, in that the unnatural multiplier counts as bonus degrees of success. Say you roll a straight success but have a x2 modifier, you end up with two degrees of success. If you had unnatural strength x3, you would have gotten three degrees of success.

Strength BONUS is added ot things like damage: Example, you swing a chiansword and hit. You roll 1d10+3 damage. You then consult your strength bonus and add that to the damage. In the case of the same marine from above with Strength 44, his strength bonus is doubled due to unnatural strength, so instead of adding 4 to the roll, he adds 8, for a grand total of 1d10+11 damage on the attack (1d10+3+8). When the marine is in Power Armor (which is most of the time) you add the +20 to strength BONUS after Unnatural strength is calculated, so you would do a grand total of 1d10+13 (1d10+3+8+2).

All total, his strength characteristic is 44, his base strength bonus is 8, his bonus in PA is 10. When making checks he reduces the difficulty by 10. When making opposed checks, he adds an automatic 2 degrees of success but doesn't add 10 to the roll.

Page 136 shows you the examples of unnatural characteristics for both opposed and standard checks. Page 161 tells you how to apply the strength from the power armor.

This is the example I'm giving my players on Unnatural Characteristic Modifiers. Does it seem right?

A PC has a Strength of 46, however as a Space Marine he also has Unnatural Strength (x2), so his Strength Bonus is 8, rather than just 4.
In addition to this he gets an additional +20 Strength Modifier from his Power Armour which gives him a Strength bonus of 10.

If he was to take a Strength test with a Challenging (+0) modifier he starts with a strength of 46. Unnatural Strength (x2) modifies the test to Ordinary (+10). Then his Power Armour modifier of +20 is applied. This gives him a 76% chance of success.

If he made an opposed Strength Test against an Imperial Guardsman with Strength 31, the Guardsman will need to roll 31 or less. The PC however does not add his Unnatural Strength modifier at this point, but will add the +20 modifier for his Power Armour, which means he needs to roll 66 or less. The Unnatural Strength modifier then adds two degrees of success to the result if the PC wins.

Tattoedbikerdude said:

That's correct.

Cool, thanks!

The guys generated their characters last week. We'll be starting for real tomorrow.