The rules for Frenzy state "The character must attack the nearest enemy in melee combat if possible" and that if not engaged he must move towards the nearest enemy.

This seems pretty clear cut to me that, while Frenzied, the character can do nothing on his turn but advance and make melee attacks.

So how does the Mental Rage talent work? It says that while in a Frenzied state "the character may use his psychic powers normally." Does this override Frenzy's compulsion to move or attack in melee? Does he then have the option to either advance and attack OR cast/sustain whatever powers he wants during his turn?

The player will still be predisposed to close and engage, he just has the option to use psychic powers instead of being barred from them.

ItsUncertainWho said:

How could he ever use a psychic power if the frenzy forces him to use every available action to either move up or attack in melee?

I think you mostly had it right with your first post evil.

A character has the option to use/activate/sustain/whatever with their psychic powers, then attack/move, or whatever required by frenzy. Its more that frenzy limits their options on what they can do. About the only thing it really forces is the advance towards the enemy.

Frenzy does not stop you from making ranged attacks unless you are within melee distance.

If you are unable to attack the nearest enemy, at range or melee, you move toward them at best speed.

Mental Rage allows you to use Psychic powers to attack with or to get you to the target faster so you can engage in melee.

If you are unable to attack the nearest enemy, at range or melee, you move toward them at best speed.

No, he has to engage in melee, though he probably could use ranged attacks if they don't interfere with his movement (MIU weapon from Rogue Trader comes to mind).

Essentially, frenzy restricts the character to two actions:

-close with the enemy

-attack the enemy in melee, preferably All-Out

Only if those two are impossible does the Marine have the opportunity to do anything else. Mental Rage adds a third point to these two directives: "Use a psychic power".

As you point out elsewhere, it's a fundamental problem with the ommission of action types for powers e.g. Attack. For Example, Smite is clearly an Attack type power, and can clearly be used during frenzy. Same goes for blood boil, blood lance etc. However, divinations and telepathy are unlikely.

GM discretion prevails, But i'd make an heirarchy of actions that need to be performed in Frenzy, and what powers they encompass. For example

NO - Telepathy or Divination, Gates of Infinity, Vortex of Doom, Shackle Soul, Veil of Time and Force Dome (unless sustained from prior to frenzy). I see these arts are simply not violent enough, or too complex/esoteric to be achieved in a frenzy.

1. Attack (Smite, Blood Boil, Blood Lance, Avenger, Machine Curse [if closest enemy is machine], Fear the Darkness)

2. Move towards enemy (Wings on Sanguinius)

3. "Buff" (Might of Ancients, Iron Arm [pointless I know, you can't parry], Might of Heroes.)

This is just my own opinion based on thematics in my head. It also means that the only way to activate things like Might of Heroes is to already be in combat with an enemy (Satisfying priority 2) and intend on making an attack with a melee weapon the other half action, either before or after the action (Satisfying priority 1).

I would also be incline to stipulate that the Librarian couldn't Fetter powers during a frenzy i.e. the moment you don't want to risk Psychic Phenomena, you had better run off and stab something in the face, hadn't you.

ItsUncertainWho said:

From the Frenzy description:

"The character must attack the nearest enemy in melee combat if possible."

"If he is not engaged with the nearest enemy, he must move towards that enemy and engage it if possible."

How can the character make ranged attacks? These two sentences seem to explain EXACTLY what the character must do with his actions each turn; move or melee.

Grammatically speaking, of course, because there is not a comma after the last "enemy" in the second sentence, if the nearest enemy is more than the character's maximum run distance away, it would be impossible to "move towards that enemy and engage it" with the character's alloted actions, leaving the character open to perform other actions. This may or may not be intentional on the part of the developers, and there is no way to be certain without clarification.

My question is whether Mental Rage overcomes this compulsion because it says a character may use his psychic powers "normally." If, for example, there is an ork nob 10 meters away, could I decide to Smite him instead of running up and engaging? Or would Frenzy force me to move because it is possible for me to engage him, and then force me to attack because I am engaged?

My question is whether Mental Rage overcomes this compulsion because it says a character may use his psychic powers "normally." If, for example, there is an ork nob 10 meters away, could I decide to Smite him instead of running up and engaging? Or would Frenzy force me to move because it is possible for me to engage him, and then force me to attack because I am engaged?

What would be the point of the talent in this case?

You seem to be ignoring the “if possible” at the end of each of those lines.

I had a character that was in a situation where he was frenzied and it was not possible to move to, or get within melee range easily. He had an autogun in hand and the GM approved of my shoot until the weapon was empty, then tossing the weapon aside, instead of reloading, I proceeded to get off of the roof, which meant going away from the enemy to get to a ladder on the far side of the roof I was on, sprint across the street and scale the outside of the building the nearest enemy was on. I then tore him to shreds with my chainsword.

This situation of no possibility of engaging an enemy without being out of the fight for several rounds and having to go away from the enemy to get to the enemy, was resolved by the “if possible” Allowing me to attack at range, until I couldn't.

Our ruling was that, you are frenzied, not stupid. You have at hands a means to attack. There is no reasonable way to get to the enemy without moving away from him. Instinct says pull the trigger. Out of ammo/Jam, no way to attack in hand, then take the long way to move.

As far as Mental Rage goes: the Frenzy is always going to favor melee attack. If you can use a power to get to the enemy faster, use that. If you can't use a power to get to the enemy, run but try to kill them along the way with the warp. If you can't reach them by moving, smack them down with the warp.

I would also go so far as to say Mental Rage forces you to push any power you use, if it doesn't say that already..

Cifer said:

That's my point. It wouldn't do anything other than allow a character to use psychic powers if there is no enemy within his movement distance. I'm going to play it so that it overrides Frenzy's compulsion, allows the character to use psychic powers instead of movment or melee.

I just wish the talent said that instead of just "may use psychic powers normally"

ItsUncertainWho said:

The second to last paragraph in my post is all about the "if possible." The way Frenzy is structured, you MUST attack if you are engaged in melee. If you are not engaged, you MUST move to be engaged if it is possible , i.e. if there is an enemy within range of your run.

If there isn't an enemy in range, then you are free to shoot as much as you want.

Also, regardless of what the intent of the rules may be, the actual wording of the rules says nothing about having to move "at best speed". So as long as you move toward the enemy you could simply choose a half move. Then you can use any half/reaction/free action Psychic Powers you wish.

Space Monkey said:

"If he is not engaged with the nearest enemy, he must move towards it and engage if possible."

This sentence says that if it is possible for a space marine to move towards the nearest enemy and engage it, then that is what he must do. So if an enemy is within his run range, he must move and engage in melee, because it would be possible to do so. He cannot take a leisurely half move in the enemy's general direction and shoot.

I'm merely pointing out how it is worded. If you wish to read more into that then that's your call.

If I have to move toward the enemy "where possible" then I choose a half move and shoot. I am still moving toward the enemy where possible because there is nothing in my way to stop me from advancing. Once I reach the enemy I must engage in melee but until that time I choose to shoot them as I close.

Space Monkey said:

No.

Read the sentence again.

The character MUST - (you have no choice in this)

move towards the enemy and engage - (this means get your character into melee range)

if possible. - (Meaning that if there is an enemy within your run distance, you only have one option to take)

Let's not forget the totally useless Battle Rage. Removing the limitation against Parry while using Frenzy is all well and good, but since you're pushed to use All Out Attack which still prohibits Parry, the Talent is almost worthless.

Then perhaps it is meant as either allowing normal attacks or (if you want to get a little more powerful) parries after All-Out attacks...?

Cifer said:

Actually, after looking at the Deathwatch version of Frenzy, there doesn't appear to be the line requiring use of All Out Attack. It's in Rogue Trader, but not in Deathwatch. so that means Battle Rage is still useful. Hooray for the Blood Angels!

I think I'm going to eliminate the offending line from the Rogue Trader version of Frenzy so the Missionary might actually want to follow up buying Frenzy with Battle Rage.

evilamericorp said:

...and if there isn't an enemy within your run distance? Oh, and I don't need to read the sentence again thanks, I've read it many times already.

If a Frenzied character is 200 yards away from the nearest enemy then it's not possible to engage it and therefore the only rule I must follow is that I "must move toward the enemy". It does not specifically say I must run toward it. That may have been the writers intent but as I've already pointed out, the wording only says I have to MOVE toward the enemy. It does not say that I MUST run, so as long as I move toward the enemy I'm within the letter of the rules. Once I close to Charge range then I must Charge as it is now possible to engage the enemy in melee.

But thanks for your opinion.

Space Monkey said:

You either didn't read or didn't comprehend any of my posts. If there is no enemy within your run distance, it would be impossible to "move towards the enemy and engage" and therefore Frenzy doesn't oblige you to do anything.

On Battle Rage: On my reading you can parry even after a full attack (in Dark Heresy... as said, in Deathwatch you are not forced to make an All Out Attack, and the wording of Battle Rage is also different). Battle Rage in Dark Heresy states "You can spend reactions to Parry while frenzied". The rules from All Out Attack do prevent you from Dodging or Parrying, but you retain your Reaction, just you can't do anything with it (unless you have Furious Assault). You still have that Reaction to spend and by spending it Battle Rage allows you to Parry. Also, if you happened to have Wall of Steel as well, as it grants you another Reaction (rather than another parry, just you can only use it to parry) if you have that as well you can parry twice, as you have two reactions to spend.

Basically, in the case of Dark Heresy I am presuming the use of "Reaction" and "Reactions" rather than simply allowing you to Parry (as is the case in Deathwatch) is important . Also otherwise there is no point to the Talent and I am guessing they did not intentionally design a worthless Talent. That it ends up being quite powerful (as now not only you have the benefits of Frenzy but you can still parry, multiple times even), but you still can't dodge, and it is only available for rank 8 Imperartor-Mortis Assasins, who are meant to be bloody combat monsters.

borithan said:

By simply removing the restriction on requirining the use of All Out Attack, it also opens the possibility of a Frenzy-using character to use Swift Attack (and Lightning Attack) and/or the Two-Weapon Wielder Talents. I don't mind seeing massive flurries as an option out of a Frenzy-guy in addition to a single wallop from AOA.