I wanted to share some ideas my group has as an alternative to abstract range and combat. Let me first state that I like the narrative approach, but many situations, especially during combat, slowed the game down rather than speeding it up, especially when faced with multiple enemies, or in a dungeon type of terrain. Since my group also plays Warhammer Fantasy battle, we thought why not try to combine a few ideas, but focus on keeping it simple and as much compatible with the RAW as possible.

In order to use grid maps, we had to define a movement speed to characters. Lets take 4 squares movement as 1 maneuver. It doesn't matter if this is done diagonally or straight (keep it simple, and this is not D&D)

Any enemy within 4 squares of you is close range. You can engage such a character as normal. characters further than 4 but within 12 squares are at medium range, further than 12 but within 24 long, and further than 24 is extreme range.

0-4 : Close

5-12: Medium

13-24: Long

>24: extreme

Just count the amount of squares between characters to see the distance of each other.

Now for the terrain ideas. These have been heavily borrowed from warhammer fantasy battle in order to simplify the simulated combat. Let's start with each terrain type and what rules or effects they might give;

Forests: +1 challenge die to attacks at range vs creatures that are in a forest (light cover). Movement is also reduced while in a forest, creatures move 1 square less unless they are beastmen or woodelves.

Light cover : light cover is standing behind a low fence, in undergrowth, graveyard stone etc. Like forests, these give a +1 challenge die to attacks at range vs the creature in light cover.

Heavy cover: heavy cover is peaking around a corner, hiding behind a low stone wall or crenallations etc. These give +2 challenge die to attacks at range vs the creature in heavy cover. In addition, trying to pass over heavy cover requires 2 squares of movement unless the creature succeeds on a athletics check.

The location cards can still be used on the map, just draw the number of squares that location is in size, and place the location card in to remind players what it is and what extra rules apply. You can use height of terrain etc too with this. I have loads of ideas too for additions to this setup, but I wanted to share the basics first with you guys.

This sounds like a great idea. Although I like conceptually the way the game is supposed to represent the relative locations of combatants, as you said, once you get a large number of combatants spread out, it becomes a logistical nightmare tracking. I was also lamenting that I wouldn't be able to use all my existing game grid maps. My group has never liked it either, missing the old maps and finding it a pain to track.

Your idea would seem to solve all these problems. I'm looking forward to trying it out, thanks for posting it!

I really like your idea here. I too play WFB and this is something I've been missing. I've even thought about using Mordheim rules for some, bigger, combats, but that seems a little overt the top...

I've got one question though. Doesn't Callenge dice seem a little harsh? To me, it feels like Misfortune dice would do the job. I mean with the possibility for a Chaos Star popping up... Granted, it would work well with blackpowder weapons due to misfire.

Anyway, that's just my two Karls worth... Good job man, it saves me the time inventing this myself, thanks

Hey all, thanks for the good crits :-)

@ Sharnhorst; I think you're right, maybe a misfortune die is better suited for terrain effects, although it's nice to use for unstable weapons like black powder weapons!

Wow, that's a nice elegant way to use grids if you want to (and for those large logistical nightmare combats).

Hello again!

I just want to let you know that I have taken the liberty to slightly rewrite your rules, following the above posts.

Therefore, I want to ask you if it is OK with you that I post these, for the benefit of the GM's and players on the site?

Actually, I'd like to PM them to you first, but I haven' figured out that function on this site...

Hi sharnhorst,

Feel free to post them here if you like! After all, we're all brainstorming here for a better game experience!

Ok then, putting my head on the block here, I mean, here goes:

OPTIONAL RULES FOR MOVEMENT DURING COMBAT.

This optional rules is based on Warhammer Fantasy Battles, to some extent, and other generic systems.
The system is based on movement rates and grid maps.
In order to use grid maps, we had to define a movement speed to characters. Lets say X squares movement as 1 maneuver. It doesn't matter if this is done diagonally.
Since we are basing this on WFB, lets use the Movement rates given in that game:

-Humans have 4 squares/inches base movement rate.
-Dwarfs and Halflings have 3 squares/inches base movement rate.
-Elves and Skaven have 5 squares/inches base movement rate.
-Horses have 8 squares/inches base movement rate (barded horses have only 7).
More movement rates can be found WFB main rulebook or in the various Army books.

Any enemy within 4 squares of you is close range. You can engage such a character as normal. Characters further than 4 squares, but within 12 squares are at medium range, further than 12 squares, but within 24 squares long, and further than 24 squares is extreme range.
0-4 : Close
5-12: Medium
13-24: Long
>24: extreme
Just count the amount of squares between characters to see the distance of each other.

Now for the terrain ideas. These have been heavily borrowed from Warhammer fantasy battle in order to simplify the simulated combat. Let's start with each terrain type and what rules or effects they might give;

Forests: +1 Misfortune die to attacks at range vs creatures that are in a forest (light cover). Movement is also reduced while in a forest, creatures move 1 square less unless they are beastmen or woodelves.

Light cover: light cover is standing behind a low fence, in undergrowth, graveyard stone etc. Like forests, these give a +1 Misfortune die to attacks at range vs the creature in light cover.

Heavy cover: heavy cover is peaking around a corner, hiding behind a low stone wall or crenelations etc. These give +2 Misfortune die to attacks at range vs the creature in heavy cover. In addition, trying to pass over heavy cover requires 2 squares of movement unless the creature succeeds on a athletics check.

If the ranged attacker is using a black-powder weapon, replace the Misfortune die(s) with Challenge die(s). This is done to represent the inherent greater danger of using these weapons (misfire on Chaos star).

The location cards can still be used on the map, just draw the number of squares that location is in size, and place the location card in to remind players what it is and what extra rules apply. You can use height of terrain etc too with this.

If you don't want to use grid maps, it's perfectly fine to use inches instead of squares. One square is one inch. This works especially well with Warhammer/Citadel miniatures.

Hope you like it, I just tried to clean it up a little and add my suggestion, wich you seemed to approve of.

If you or someone else has the know-how to make it into one of those good-looking 'Warhammer-esque' adobe documents, that'd be cool as hell...

I really like this idea. While I like the idea of narrative combat, I sometimes find it difficult to keep track of who is at close range or medium range to what with different people engaging different things. Also my desire to use some WHFB figures from my collection always calls to me.

I'm not sure about the giving of humans and dwarfs different movement rates. While I understand as it's the movement listed in WHFB, and indeed many other games give them different speeds, I can see the potential for players complaining, saying that it's one manoeuvre to change a range band, which means that for some players it won't be the one or two etc.

Also while black powder weapons are inherently more dangerous than other range weapons to change theirs to a challenge die seems to me a bit over the top. A challenge die has a much greater chance of just general failure than a misfortune die, so more often than not they're going to be just missing rather than exploding.

I would've maybe thought about having a misfortune die for light cover, so standing in light cover or firing into woods, and maybe a challenge die for heavy cover. I mean with light cover more often than not you just can't see the opponent but things like a hedge isn't going to stop a bullet if you put it in the right area. A wall will, and therefore requires a much more difficult shot.

Anyways that's my two clanks worth.

I will definitely be thinking of using these though, if only I can find space amongst all the cards etc on my little gaming table for my battlemat.

Some good points Mecha. Although I feel the dwarf is a bit overpowered compared to humans or elves. I think this is a nice flavor rule that emphasizes the dwarf's strengths but also weaknesses.

Good stuff. One of the main problems for my group has been understanding / liking the abstract range system. After so many years of rigid distance calculation the players just feel that they don't have enough control over the situation and also there are some weird situations with the abstract ranges. If I can convince my group to continue their adventures (and find the time to prepare some more adventures for them), I'll definitely try these rules out.

Excellent thread! i was searching for this kidn of info in the forum, glad i found it after all! One question though....

Do you think that heavy armor can affect the speed in your houserules? i mean, a guy in heavy plates should move more slower than a semi-naked Slayer or Wardancer. Any idea for a rule in this?

Also , i am a new GM, and i love the idea for putting different movement speed for the different races, it is similar to the system in WFRP 2d edition, which is good. But, does anybody also think that defense should be worked out a little?

I feel completely unrealistic that a 5 agility elf has less defence than a ironbreaker with 2 agility, since the armor of the last doesnt make him better to defend or evade the attack , but to soak damage. Any ideas for putting agility in the defense rate, or revamping the armor defense, maybe putting less defense to heavy plate and more to , lets say leather amor? Right now the only houserule that i can think of, is giving 1 defense to any character that has more agility than the attacker. I dont believe it will be gamebreaker, any other ideas?

I like the cover types idea giving challenge dice. I think I will be stealing that.

I like it...

May I dare a couple of suggestions ?

1. Don't you think we should consider to actually represent the "Engaged" condition ?

Engaged : adjacent

Close : 1-4

etc...

2. I've been toying with the idea of linking the Movement rates and Agility characteristic ?

An average Human has AGI 2 / An average Elf has AGI 3 / A Beastman has AGI 4...

A Human PC with AGI 4 could be considered as a real superior creature in that field.

How about simply considering that the Movement base of a creature is its AGI X2 ( when running... AGI X1 when walking... ) ?

A Human with AGI 3 would be able to move a distance of 6 squares for a Manoeuvre...

Might not be perfect, but it's pretty easy to remember...

3. Limiting number of movements in a turn ?

I might have misunderstood the rules, but if my memory serves me well, one can spend a fatigue ( or wound for a NPC ) in order to get an extra Manoeuvre. This Manoeuvre can be used as a Movement ? Am I right ? I don't remenber reading anything about limiting the number of Movement Manoeuvres... So a PC or NPC could run faster than light...

Something like limiting the Movements to a running Movement + a walking Movement distance could be useful...

A "regular" Elf ( AGI 3 ) could move 9 squares max in a turn, even if he spends a fatigue...

4. Running Skill and diagonals ?

How about considering that a "Running" skill could give a PC the ability to move using diagonals on the grid ?

What do you think of those suggestions ?

We ended up using a very simple system, gridless...

- Engaged = base to base

- Close : short stick = 10cm

- Medium : 30cm stick

- Long : 60cm stick

- I took a look at WFRP 1rd Ed and decided to adopt ( more or less ) the Movement Rate value. 1 point = 2,5cm. An average human has Mouvement : 4... 10cm stick in a single manoeuvre. ( when we don't know, the default value is 4, so Short Stick is used to measure the distance )

- Maximum Mouvement during a turn based on Agility value... AGI : 3 = 3 fatigue tokens can be spent for movement manoeuvres.