The flame descriptor only says you need to test agility to avoid, and never calls it specifically a dodge.
While the rules section on dodging auto-fire and AoE specifically mentions dodging a flamer attack, and a dodge requires spending your reaction.
While there's nothing definite about it, afaik the agility test is just the reverse of the BS test you make for every other weapon. A victim who fails his agiltiy test can still dodge - as long as he can make it out of the flamed zone via the dodging blasts stuff.
Cifer said:
While there's nothing definite about it, afaik the agility test is just the reverse of the BS test you make for every other weapon. A victim who fails his agiltiy test can still dodge - as long as he can make it out of the flamed zone via the dodging blasts stuff.
That is both my understanding of how it works, as well as how the group I game with does it.
-=Brother Praetus=-
The way I see it:
- Any time a flamer is fired at a character, that character gets to make an agility test to avoid it. This does not spend a reaction.
- If the character fails the agility test, then they may spend a reaction in an attempt to dodge out of the flamers area.
To see why I do it this way, take the following munchkin character:
- He is dual wielding basic flamers with nothing to mitigate the penalty for using a basic weapon in 1 hand.
- He lacks the talent to use flamers
- He lacks two weapon wielder and ambidextrous
His usual pattern of attack is to fire both flamers at the same target. While the penalties are such that almost anyone making the agility test will automatically pass, but they still have to spend a reaction to make the test. Meaning:
- If the target doesn't have step aside, he will get hit by the second flamer.
- If the target does have step aside, he is forced to use it.
- If they chose to not avoid the flamer, they risk being set on fire.
Either way, the target (and any other enemy near the target) is now very vulnerable to the rest of the PCs trying to shoot him. Only temple assassins and enemies which are too tough to be threatened by a flamer will be able to avoid this trick. Very nasty for a trick that can only be stopped by the flamers suffering a jam. Flamers don't jam in Deathwatch.
Make the ag test a free action and this whole thing fails because almost everyone will pass the agility test.
Bilateralrope said:
The way I see it:
- Any time a flamer is fired at a character, that character gets to make an agility test to avoid it. This does not spend a reaction.
- If the character fails the agility test, then they may spend a reaction in an attempt to dodge out of the flamers area.
To see why I do it this way, take the following munchkin character:
- He is dual wielding basic flamers with nothing to mitigate the penalty for using a basic weapon in 1 hand.
- He lacks the talent to use flamers
- He lacks two weapon wielder and ambidextrous
His usual pattern of attack is to fire both flamers at the same target. While the penalties are such that almost anyone making the agility test will automatically pass, but they still have to spend a reaction to make the test. Meaning:
- If the target doesn't have step aside, he will get hit by the second flamer.
- If the target does have step aside, he is forced to use it.
- If they chose to not avoid the flamer, they risk being set on fire.
Either way, the target (and any other enemy near the target) is now very vulnerable to the rest of the PCs trying to shoot him. Only temple assassins and enemies which are too tough to be threatened by a flamer will be able to avoid this trick. Very nasty for a trick that can only be stopped by the flamers suffering a jam. Flamers don't jam in Deathwatch.
Make the ag test a free action and this whole thing fails because almost everyone will pass the agility test.
Except the munkin character would have two-weapon weilder (which as I understand it you need to even fire both as a full action)
Also they would be trained and have Cleanse and Purify, giving a -20% to their agility test. So they need to do 2 tests at -20% to not get hit.
Recoil gloves or extra grip would get rid of any penalty anyone thinks up there, which isn't RAW as I see it.
I don't personally see how dodge applies as a second chance, you don't get any second chance on anything else in the game without fate points, which they could still use to second chance "dodge" it.
I assume others read it the same as me on the Cleanse and Purify, for the test on catching fire is also at -20%?
I don't personally see how dodge applies as a second chance, you don't get any second chance on anything else in the game without fate points, which they could still use to second chance "dodge" it.
Yes you do - it's the basic mechanic of combat: Your first chance not to get hit is your attacker not making his BS/WS roll, your second chance is to make your own dodge roll. Flame weapons merely hand over that first roll to the victim.
Suijin said:
Bilateralrope said:
The way I see it:
- Any time a flamer is fired at a character, that character gets to make an agility test to avoid it. This does not spend a reaction.
- If the character fails the agility test, then they may spend a reaction in an attempt to dodge out of the flamers area.
To see why I do it this way, take the following munchkin character:
- He is dual wielding basic flamers with nothing to mitigate the penalty for using a basic weapon in 1 hand.
- He lacks the talent to use flamers
- He lacks two weapon wielder and ambidextrous
His usual pattern of attack is to fire both flamers at the same target. While the penalties are such that almost anyone making the agility test will automatically pass, but they still have to spend a reaction to make the test. Meaning:
- If the target doesn't have step aside, he will get hit by the second flamer.
- If the target does have step aside, he is forced to use it.
- If they chose to not avoid the flamer, they risk being set on fire.
Either way, the target (and any other enemy near the target) is now very vulnerable to the rest of the PCs trying to shoot him. Only temple assassins and enemies which are too tough to be threatened by a flamer will be able to avoid this trick. Very nasty for a trick that can only be stopped by the flamers suffering a jam. Flamers don't jam in Deathwatch.
Make the ag test a free action and this whole thing fails because almost everyone will pass the agility test.
Except the munkin character would have two-weapon weilder (which as I understand it you need to even fire both as a full action)
Also they would be trained and have Cleanse and Purify, giving a -20% to their agility test. So they need to do 2 tests at -20% to not get hit.
Recoil gloves or extra grip would get rid of any penalty anyone thinks up there, which isn't RAW as I see it.
I don't personally see how dodge applies as a second chance, you don't get any second chance on anything else in the game without fate points, which they could still use to second chance "dodge" it.
Ok, he would need Two Weapon Wielder. As for those other options you mentioned, my point is that the munchkin would be nasty without them.
Suijin said:
I assume others read it the same as me on the Cleanse and Purify, for the test on catching fire is also at -20%?
That is how I rule it.
Cifer said:
I don't personally see how dodge applies as a second chance, you don't get any second chance on anything else in the game without fate points, which they could still use to second chance "dodge" it.
Yes you do - it's the basic mechanic of combat: Your first chance not to get hit is your attacker not making his BS/WS roll, your second chance is to make your own dodge roll. Flame weapons merely hand over that first roll to the victim.
Actually, I never interpreted it that way just by reading it, but your comment and re-reading it makes it possible.
Also, I was wrong (yes I fully admit it) about Two-weapon Weilder being necessary. I didn't find anywhere in the DW rulebook that said either way. The DH errata does state that you can attack with both hands without the talent though, with the appropriate penalties (which don't apply RAW).
Suijin said:
Cifer said:
I don't personally see how dodge applies as a second chance, you don't get any second chance on anything else in the game without fate points, which they could still use to second chance "dodge" it.
Yes you do - it's the basic mechanic of combat: Your first chance not to get hit is your attacker not making his BS/WS roll, your second chance is to make your own dodge roll. Flame weapons merely hand over that first roll to the victim.
Actually, I never interpreted it that way just by reading it, but your comment and re-reading it makes it possible.
Also, I was wrong (yes I fully admit it) about Two-weapon Weilder being necessary. I didn't find anywhere in the DW rulebook that said either way. The DH errata does state that you can attack with both hands without the talent though, with the appropriate penalties (which don't apply RAW).
We started disagreeing with each other about TWW. We both reconsidered our positions and changed our minds. So we still disagree
I'll be going with allowing dual wielding without TWW, using the penalties from DH. But, since that rule isn't in DW, I would argue that the DW raw disagrees.
Here are the modifiers my munchkin causes to agility rolls:
- Using a flamer untrained: +20
- 1-handed basic weapon: Not stated anywhere. Since other basic weapons give -20 when used one handed, I'll say +20 for this.
- Dual wielding without the talents: Not mentioned, so I'm going with +20/+40
This means that the agility test to avoid his flamers is at +60 for his main hand, +80* for his offhand. Note that AG 40 is a prerequisite of Step Aside, meaning that anyone with it will doesn't need to roll to avoid these flamers. So if the agility test is a free action, the guy with step aside can simply ignore this idiot. But if the agility test, the character with step aside still has to spend both his dodge reactions or get burned.
*I can't find any mention of the +/-60 limit to test modifiers in the DW core rulebook. Since the horde modifier can go up to +60 and players are encouraged to use attacks that also give a bonus (like full auto), I'm thinking that the limit no longer applies.
I always thought it was a dodge roll first, and possibly dodging the entire attack, then take damage, and then make an agi test to avoid catching on fire.
Nope. Assuming you blow every test possible, t's agility test -> dodge test -> take damage -> agility test -> run around on fire.
Cifer said:
Nope. Assuming you blow every test possible, t's agility test -> dodge test -> take damage -> agility test -> run around on fire.
And all of that is contingent on you being Ag bonus in meters away from the edge of the flamers cone.
Not necessarily. The dodge test definitely is, the second agility test definitely isn't. The first agility test isn't stated one way or the other.
Yes, I read the AB meters to the egde only applying on the dodge. There is no mention of it on the other parts.
Bilateralrope said:
Suijin said:
Cifer said:
I don't personally see how dodge applies as a second chance, you don't get any second chance on anything else in the game without fate points, which they could still use to second chance "dodge" it.
Yes you do - it's the basic mechanic of combat: Your first chance not to get hit is your attacker not making his BS/WS roll, your second chance is to make your own dodge roll. Flame weapons merely hand over that first roll to the victim.
Actually, I never interpreted it that way just by reading it, but your comment and re-reading it makes it possible.
Also, I was wrong (yes I fully admit it) about Two-weapon Weilder being necessary. I didn't find anywhere in the DW rulebook that said either way. The DH errata does state that you can attack with both hands without the talent though, with the appropriate penalties (which don't apply RAW).
We started disagreeing with each other about TWW. We both reconsidered our positions and changed our minds. So we still disagree
I'll be going with allowing dual wielding without TWW, using the penalties from DH. But, since that rule isn't in DW, I would argue that the DW raw disagrees.
Here are the modifiers my munchkin causes to agility rolls:
- Using a flamer untrained: +20
- 1-handed basic weapon: Not stated anywhere. Since other basic weapons give -20 when used one handed, I'll say +20 for this.
- Dual wielding without the talents: Not mentioned, so I'm going with +20/+40
This means that the agility test to avoid his flamers is at +60 for his main hand, +80* for his offhand. Note that AG 40 is a prerequisite of Step Aside, meaning that anyone with it will doesn't need to roll to avoid these flamers. So if the agility test is a free action, the guy with step aside can simply ignore this idiot. But if the agility test, the character with step aside still has to spend both his dodge reactions or get burned.
*I can't find any mention of the +/-60 limit to test modifiers in the DW core rulebook. Since the horde modifier can go up to +60 and players are encouraged to use attacks that also give a bonus (like full auto), I'm thinking that the limit no longer applies.
As far as RAW, the agility roll to avoid being hit only has modifiers for the weilder not being trained and not bracing heavy weapons. Both don't apply to space marines as they are trained and have the talent Bulging Biceps.
Also space marines are ambidextrous, so offhand penalty doesn't apply.
With armor on, the weilding basic weapons one-handed doesn't apply either to space marines (or DH characters with recoil gloves or extra grip on weapons).
As far as balance goes, as long as they get to dodge after being "hit" from failing the agility roll, then it is very similiar to auto-fire from weapons. It would be near impossible to hit an assassin (or any reasonable agility, dodge capable enemy) with a flamer as the only attack, same as if you attacked with just one of anything else.
Basically, no, dodging a flamer (as in, with the initial Agility roll) doesn't count as a reaction.
The only problem I can see with the Ag roll being a freebie is that a Genestealer only has a 5% chance of actually being hit , let alone damaged.
You could have a ten man squad of flame troops in a 6 foot wide corridor and never hit the charging genestealer! Yet, oddly they issue heavy flamers to Terminator squads taking on Space Hulks full of 'Stealers.
Just odd.
frenchie_666 said:
The only problem I can see with the Ag roll being a freebie is that a Genestealer only has a 5% chance of actually being hit , let alone damaged.
You could have a ten man squad of flame troops in a 6 foot wide corridor and never hit the charging genestealer! Yet, oddly they issue heavy flamers to Terminator squads taking on Space Hulks full of 'Stealers.
Just odd.
I suggest you have a look at the rules for dodging an area of effect attack (pg 238). To dodge an AOE, the distance between you and the edge of the AOE must be less than your AB in meters. So unless you allow the genestealer to dodge through a wall, it will have trouble dodging to the side. Dodging to the front is blocked by the Terminators, leaving only dodging to the back. But even if the corridor is long enough, the AB on a genestealer is less than half of the heavy flamers range. So in the corridor, the genestealer isn't going to be dodging.
Now lets add in cleanse and purify to the Terminators. Now the genestealer has a 50% chance to pass the test (60 from AG, +10 from Unnatural AG, -20 from cleanse and purify). So they don't look too hard to hit, though there will be trouble setting one on fire.
Does dodging a flame attack get treated the same as an AOE? Might have to slap my GM if it does, makes things very different.
frenchie_666 said:
Does dodging a flame attack get treated the same as an AOE? Might have to slap my GM if it does, makes things very different.
Yes it does. The example in the rules even specifically uses a flamer as an example for this.