Hello fellow Battle-Brothers,

I am just curious about the Recoil Suppression of the Power Armour ( page 161).

Does that really mean a space marine can use an astartes bolter (godwyn pattern, page 146) one-handed? I mean, if this is right there is no need to use a bolt pistol anymore. Because the bolter does more damage, higher firerate and so on.

In one hand a power sword and in the other hand a bolter...

The only limitation seems to be the requisition points but that should be no hindrance on higher ranks.

Cheers,

TechVoid.

you still get a -30 BS in melee with a bolter tho, not to mention you shoot only a single shot. In melee a pistol is better then a bolter.

You can use the bolter in one hand without a problem, but because it isn't a Pistol type weapon, you can't use it in Melee at all. That's why you should carry a bolt pistol if you plan to get into melee combat.

MILLANDSON said:

Santiago said:

Well yes, I was just talking about using it as an actual bolter isn't allowed.

Hi

You can use the bolt pistol in close combat, which you can't with the bolter. Only Pistol grade weapons can be used in h2h combat.

This is also why Assault Marines are given bolt pistols.

:-)

Santiago said:

Pretty impressive, but less impressive than the marine's fists - they start with Unarmed Master, so their unarmed attacks deal 1d10+SB I damage (note, not primitive), while an Improvised Weapon is 1d10-2+SB, Primitive and Unbalanced.

Uh, I think you did not get my point. Or I am just too inexperienced.

I just want to point out if it is better to have a bolter instead of a bolt pistol in addition to a melee weapon.

Since the Marines are ambidextrous they can choose to use one hand for a ranged weapon and one hand for a melee weapon. So grap a power sword and a godwyn bolter for example.

So do not get the argument that you cannot use a bolter in a melee because first I imagine to use the melee weapon in a close combat. If you want to use your ranged weapon in addition to the melee weapon you need the corresponding feats.

I just have the following picture in my mind: First you engange the enemy and shoot with your bolter (which is better than a bolt pistol) and if you reach your foe you switch to your melee weapon

I agree that this case is not meant for every marine. If I think about a devastator I think about a heavy weapon which cannot used in melee (like a bolter). I do not know why then a devastator should have a bolt pistol and not switch to something like a power sword. Maybe because he has a high BS and would be better with a ranged weapon he can switch to.

Or a assault marine, yes, who can use two weapon fighting. He would like to have a power fist and a bolter which he then can use all in melee.

Oh I don't know. Just some thoughts!

But in the end it depends on the style of every independent player.

Best regards,

TechVoid.

Short bit: Bolters are so incredibly uber, it's nuts. Assault Marine's don't get them.

Long bit: I agree that a bolter is far superior to a bolt pistol. My character is an Assault Marine. I question why an Assault Marine who does melee would want a bolt pistol. If you are a melee marine, then I do not see the usefulness of bolt pistols. I plan on buying both two handed weapon talents. Then I plan on requisitioning two bolters with chainsword attachments. Or perhaps one bolter with a chainsword attachment, and a fancy melee weapon.

I cry a little inside when I see all the other classes kick ass with the bolter. That, topped by the lack of melee to-hit bonuses in the system seems a bit off. Others with bolters can routinely get +30 to-hit, and hit with 1-4 bolts. Melee does not get any bonuses, and can only hit once*. Melee is a little screwed in this system.

*One cannot move and make a full attack. This is not a problem with ranged weapons, but is with melee.

You can't use a Basic or Heavy weapon while engaged in melee.

If you have a Boltgun (basic in one hand) and a Melee weapon in the other you can use the melee weapon while engaged in melee, but you cannot use the Boltgun at all since it is basic.

If you have a Melee weapon and a pistol in your hands you can use one or both against your melee opponent or the pistol against a ranged enemy and the melee weapon against the melee opponent.

darkrosse50, take a look at Furious Assault and Preturnatural Speed.

What the OP is saying is that if you are a Tac Marine with a Bolter and a Chainsword, you can hold both of them in your hands while shooting the on rushing enemies, then when they get you in melee you already have your melee weapon out. This actually doesn't matter too much since marines start with the quick draw talent.

@OP: The whole point of the Bolt Pistol is that you can shoot it in melee. That is it one advantage over the standard Bolter. Yes, you need the appropriate feats to use the pistol and the sword in melee, but for assualt marines they can get these pretty quickly.

Also, if a devastator marine had a melee weapon put away, was firing his heavy bolter into an enemy and was then attacked, he could shift the heavy weapon into one hand, (not to use, just so he doesn't have to it,) use quick draw to pull out his melee weapon and use that until he can get out of combat and use his heavy weapon again.

If the assualt marine with the fist and bolter was in melee and had the two weapon talent, he could attack with the PF, but if he wanted to use the bolter it would have to be used as an improvised weapon, as only pistols have the ability to be shot in melee.

TechVoid said:

In summary, yes, you are correct- you can run in with your boltgun firing and then engage with a chainsword. You cannot shoot the boltgun in close combat as per the RAW due to it being unewildy and hard to aim when you're toe to toe with someone. The pistol on the other hand, is easier to swing and bring to bear on your enemies. How would you manage to get your gun aimed properly at someone when they're six inches from your face stabbing you?

Better or worse, however, is subjective, because it's unclear what you're being better than . Boltguns are good because they can do full auto fire, have larger magzines than bolt pistols, and have longer range. But the disadvantage is they can't be used in melee combat. Swords advantages in close combat are fairly clear- they do decent damage and don't run out of ammo, and in some cases (power swords, fists, etc) are superior in damage and penetration to ranged weapons.

Also remember all marines go to war with their combat knife, which is nothing to sneeze at either, so the Devestator has a backup sidearm for when he runs out of ammo or is in close combat, and he has his knife as an additional backup for when things really go to pot.

ItsUncertainWho said:

This is indeed an advantage. However I would put the Astartes Melee Attachment (Chain) [page 156] on the bolter to address this issue. Bolter 5-Req + Astartes Melee Attachment (Chain) 9-Req = 14 Req.
ItsUncertainWho said:

This is indeed an advantage. The standard set-up would be superior in this situation. I would think the above option would be superior in most, if not all, other situations.
ItsUncertainWho said:

Furious Assault (listed on page 74 as rank 5, and is described on page 119)
Preturnatural Speed (listed on page 74 as rank 8, and is described on page 124)
These are rather cool abilities, but may come a bit late. I look forward to having these abilities, but I think I will be toting a bolter (perhaps two) with an Astartes Melee Attachment (Chain) till then.

darkrose50 said:

I know per the RAW that dual wielding bolters w/ melee attachments is legal, but I would not allow it. For one, it's never been done in the fluff, to my knowledge (DW full bolters, excluding forearm mounted). Secondly, I would think a melee attachment should require two hands to use, otherwise why have a dedicated chainsword at all?

I know per the RAW that dual wielding bolters w/ melee attachments is legal, but I would not allow it. For one, it's never been done in the fluff, to my knowledge (DW full bolters, excluding forearm mounted). Secondly, I would think a melee attachment should require two hands to use, otherwise why have a dedicated chainsword at all?

I grant you that it seems a bit off. That is until you look at . . .

Bulging Biceps (114) [space Marine]: Penalties for firing heavy weapons in Semi-Auto burst and Full Auto without bracing burst are reduced from -30 to +0.

and . . .

Unnatural Strength (136) [space Marine]: Double Strength Bonus.

I would imagine someone with such raw physical presence could handle it. The chainsaw looses balanced.

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Also I would imagine if taken as a signature Wargear sufficient modifications could be made to make it, possibly, work in your mind.

Example: the Space Marine's fist is inserted into guarded hilt and grasped by all five fingers (like grabbing onto a shovel handle surrounded by a metal guard and making a fist). The firing mechanism would require the pull of a trigger, and the chainsword attachment would require the switching on of switch (perhaps by the thumb) and would be quite secured (assuming that the objection is a melee weapon with a pistol grip).

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As interesting side note that made me think of the next bit . . . in WWII in the winter and in otherwise cold areas rifles were outfitted with a squeeze trigger mechanism so that soldiers wearing mittens could shoot.

Perhaps the chainword/bolter has a curved handle similar to Count Duku's lightsaber (in Star Wars), only with some sort of squeeze trigger to fire the bolter part of the weapon.

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Also one could argue that having a chainsword attachment increases the space threatened by the melee attachment enough to use a bolter with said attachment as a melee weapon (as supported in the rules).

My comment is not against using a bolter with a melee attachment. That's fine enough, and bayonets are common in both the fluff and reality. It's the Dual wielding that's the issue. It's not a matter of strength, but of leverage. What you described is more like a forearm mount than a pistol grip.

Basically, I'm just against DW bolters all together. If it is so effective and easy per RAW, why wouldn't every marine do it?

Radomo said:

Bolters just seem superior to most (all) weapons.

darkrose50 said:

Your point? I'm not sure how that contradicts what I said. If bolters are superior to all other weapons, why don't all marines go into battle dual wieldling them on full auto?

I was agreeing with you.

bolters superior ?

my group reached rank 6 few missions ago, all whine that our "monster killer" blood angel assault marine is to overpowered and i should beat him with nerfstick. number of attacks and damage witch he can do with his MC powersword (signature wargear: hero) and bolt pistol (often changed to other melee weapon) is plain sick. also look how much talents enchance (yes expensive ones) WS vs almost everything.

boruta666 said:

Give your devo marine a susspensor for his heavy bolter, shot the same enemy with two full auto bursts in a round and see how that stacks up to the assault marine. if that isnt enough have him req a couple of extra clips of special ammo.

i fail at reading. nevermind.