Bah forgot to mention the "living lightning power" that means one more free attack for the wolf, again 50-60 extra dmg for even more risky psy usage.

I dont think any daemon lord can survive more than two round againt a rank 5 and prepared space wolf psyker....

Ofc in my game a black templar hero will end this madness, not let them too powerfull and ruin the galaxy (and the game ).

sh*tty role playing skills... Wow... Well, here's an idea. Don't play the ROLE PLAYING GAME Deathwatch, just play WH40K on the battlemat. It's obviously what this bull is about. If you had wanted to role-play characters, the books fine. Yes, I agree that everyone personal interpretation of their favorite chaper will mean that their favorite chapter got boned while their 'enemy' chapter gets all the benefits that 'my' favored chapter should have. Everything's fine, wait for the errata.

Jhaeyde said:

It is easy role play your character without paying for skills to back it up. It is much harder to do well in combat without useful skills. Frenzy > Performer any day of the week.

It is easy role play your character without paying for skills to back it up.

It's also cheating, at least if you're planning to be good at the skills you didn't buy.

evilamericorp said:

Look at the Rousing Tale use of Performer (Storyteller) and consider how that might be more useful at times than another frothing melee monster. And you can get it all the way up to +20 for only 600 points. Makes some use of that +5 Fellowship too.

Ancient Defender said:

It is not a useless "roleplaying only" skill. It has limited usefulness, which is why it is quite cheap (if I remember clearly). Now, wrangling probably is, and that is why it is probably the cheapest skill in the game (is there any other single skill that costs 100 in that book?), but if a player wants to take it for thematic reasons it is there, and I am sure a more inventive player will try and find all sorts of weird ways to use it.

It is not a useless "roleplaying only" skill. It has limited usefulness, which is why it is quite cheap (if I remember clearly). Now, wrangling probably is, and that is why it is probably the cheapest skill in the game (is there any other single skill that costs 100 in that book?), but if a player wants to take it for thematic reasons it is there, and I am sure a more inventive player will try and find all sorts of weird ways to use it.

I'm not quite sure how inventive you have to be to find a way how a native of Fenris could turn this skill to an advantage. Hey, he's even got the Fellowship to make big puppy eyes so the Watch Commander allows him to keep "Fluffy".

Regarding carouse situations: A Space Marine without the skill has about a 75% chance of "surviving" a night of serious drinking (Challenging +0, Toughness 40, Basic halfs the score, Unnatural Toughness adds +10, Preomnor adds +20, Oolotic Kidney grants a reroll) while a truly trained Space Wolf would have a chance of 99% of making it.

Jhaeyde said:

I swear to God, if I see one more of these smug "Well I'm a role player" posts, I'll punch someone in the face over the internet. It is quite possible, you know, to both be an avid role player concerned with his character's background, motivations, fears and desires AND acknowledge the fact that although the SW as written are the Imperium's greatest drunken sheep herders, they do come up somewhat short in the "righteously smiting xenos department" compared to other chapters. Two toughts in one's head at the same time and all that.

Please don't assume that I or anyone else are munchkins for wanting the SW's skill list to match the decades of fluff describing them as capable warriors EVEN compared to other space marines. Also: Please leave the smugness and superiority complex at the door.

Thank you.

Cifer said:

Even full stabling for a giant wolf is out of the question that cyber raven is a lot easier to sort out and lots of fun too.

@Ancient Defender

Someone has put quite a few points in the "Ignore arguments" skill. I wonder if that's a fluff skill or one that serious roleplayers are supposed to take.

What are those fluff talents you regard as useless?

Carouse? Maybe.

Performer? Can be used as a replacement for Command, 1300 XP cheaper than Command and available far, far earlier - say, rank 1/1/1 instead of rank 2/4/6. The only ones who get Command earlier are the Smurfs and even they have to pay more for it.

Tracking? Sure, ignore it and we'll see how you manage to locate your mission target.

Wrangling? The skill that lets you tame your very own xeno beasty?

Hardy? Combine it with an apothecary in the squad and you can go from just-before-crit to fully healed easily

Hatred (CSMs)? Yeah, I can totally see how that sucks...

Heightened Sense (Taste)? Maybe, though it may or may not apply as a bonus to tracking.

Wisdom of the Ancients? The "Ask the GM a question and he has to answer it"-talent? Screw all those Divination powers!

Where are those fluff skills?

@Faceeater

Even full stabling for a giant wolf is out of the question that cyber raven is a lot easier to sort out and lots of fun too.

Tsk. No pseudo-norse character would ever be content with less than two cyber ravens!

Cifer said:

I have no idea what this means.

Cifer said:

There are uses for tracking, wrangling and heightened senses (taste). All I'm saying, is that in a combat scenario, with all other things being equal, I'd rather have any other chapter beside me than the sheep herders. Also, I'd love to see the GM that goes: OK, you've all ignored tracking, you fail to find the target so the session is over. Everybody go home.

I have no idea what this means.

Mainly that you previously spent more time just stating Space Wolves suck and attacking the strawman of "roleplay vs rollplay" (*) than actually taking the chapter apart and showing what parts you don't like. A point I'd now like to retract and replace with a thank you for contributing to the heart of the topic.

There are uses for tracking, wrangling and heightened senses (taste). All I'm saying, is that in a combat scenario, with all other things being equal, I'd rather have any other chapter beside me than the sheep herders.

Yes, there are chapters that are more focused on combat, but every marine is already good at that. The question is whether you actually need yet another combat monster or whether a more utility-oriented character that brings in some skill in areas the rest of the squad completely lacks wouldn't be more useful to the mission.

Also, I'd love to see the GM that goes: OK, you've all ignored tracking, you fail to find the target so the session is over. Everybody go home.

You've touched on something I'd like to call rubberband difficulty here - by your logic, you need no skills at all, not even combat ability, as everything will always be just manageable for the characters. In that case, it's unimportant as well whether you've got another pure combatant with you - the combats will just become a little harder.
If the characters' skills are really supposed to matter, the GM should write missions without knowing or caring about the abilities of the characters and leave it to the players to find a way to compensate for lacking skills and talents. If you haven't got a black templar, better find a way to neutralise that enemy psyker before he deals too much damage. If you haven't got a Space Wolf, capture and interrogate an enemy soldier for the location of the target - and hope you'll be there before his disappearance is noticed.

(*) which, to be fair, Evilamericorp has pretty much brought on himself - if you spend no XP on noncombat stuff and expect your character to be as good at it as those who do, that's some BS (no, not ballistic skill) in my book. If a system has stats like fellowship, charm or interrogation and you don't invest in them, you'll suck at social parts, however much you want your character to succeed. If you go binge-drinking and don't have the Carouse to back it up, you'll likely wake up with a hangover.

Cifer said:

If I want to play a game where I pretend to sit around drinking, and trying to figure out which vampires are gay for each other, I'll play a World of Darkness game. If I want to play a game about being a SPACE MARINE who is on a xenos hunting KILL TEAM, I'll play Deathwatch. Yes, non-combat skills are important to have in many RPGs, but Deathwatch (at least the version of it that my friends and I want to play), is about a kill team going on missions to... you guessed it... kill things. Let the Inquisitors and the drunken space sheep herders do the investigation, I prefer to slaughter.

How hard would it have been to have both combat and non-combat skills for all the chapters?

How hard would it have been to have both combat and non-combat skills for all the chapters?

Let's see...

Black Templars: Interrogation/lots of Hatred and anti-psyker stuff

Blood Angels: Acrobatics/Frenzy and and some more melee stuff

Dark Angels: Forbidden Lores and Interrogation/some hatreds

Space Wolves: Carouse, Performer, Tracking, Wrangling/hatred and hardy

Storm Wardens: Gamble, Tracking/some melee talents, duty unto death

Ultramarines: Charm, Command, Performer, Tactics/duty unto death, Exemplar of Honour and some hatred

I don't see any chapters without combat related skills/talents. Do you?

If I want to play a game about being a SPACE MARINE who is on a xenos hunting KILL TEAM, I'll play Deathwatch. Yes, non-combat skills are important to have in many RPGs, but Deathwatch (at least the version of it that my friends and I want to play), is about a kill team going on missions to... you guessed it... kill things. Let the Inquisitors and the drunken space sheep herders do the investigation, I prefer to slaughter.

You might have wanted to read the Designer Diaries then. FFG has constantly assured people that yes, there will be the possibility to play missions that don't devolve into a slaughterfest. Quite a few didn't believe them and were disappointed when Final Sanction's social aspects were barely fleshed out, but it seems they've managed to at least strike a balance.

If I want to play a game where I pretend to sit around drinking, and trying to figure out which vampires are gay for each other, I'll play a World of Darkness game.

That's actually kinda funny. If I had to compare Deathwatch to any other RPG, I'd say Werewolf: the Apocalypse. An honour-based society with a rich cosmology where the characters are a well-oiled pack of elite warriors, each with a different social background and specialisation, with the survival of the world (well, humanity in the case of DW) at stake.

Cifer said:

This is a lot more interesting.

If I want to play a game about being a SPACE MARINE who is on a xenos hunting KILL TEAM, I'll play Deathwatch. Yes, non-combat skills are important to have in many RPGs, but Deathwatch (at least the version of it that my friends and I want to play), is about a kill team going on missions to... you guessed it... kill things. Let the Inquisitors and the drunken space sheep herders do the investigation, I prefer to slaughter.

This? Not so much.

Yes, Space Marines were designed by the Emperor to be good at combat. You can stop there if you like, however, they go MUCH deeper than this simplification of them.

After awhile of slaying "x" xenos and blowing up "y" Ork... it'll get boring. You'll start to compare it to other games that do the same thing and wonder "What makes this soo special and different?"

The Space Marine viewpoint that focus on just the combat and ignores the rest of what makes them Space Marines is a universe that is drab indeed.

As Kage would say, YMMV.

Cifer said:

HAH! Hit it on the head. You're a WoD larper. "well-oiled pack" indeed.

I'm a Blood Angels fan, but I'll be the first to admit that their Chapter Advances are a bit munchy. Acrobatics can't seriously be considered a non-combat selection since it's really there to ensure you can get Assassin Strike. In fact, Talented (Trade [Artisan]) is pretty much the only thing on the Blood Angels list that isn't combat oriented.

And there isn't even a Trade (Artisan) skill... Perhaps it should be Trade (Remembrancer) to cover poetry and sculpture? Hey, vampires are supposed to sparkle these days, right?

@evilamericorp

HAH! Hit it on the head. You're a WoD larper. "well-oiled pack" indeed.

I play some WoD and I've larped a little, though I prefer the two unmixed - pretending to be a 3 metre monstrosity that tears other people's heads off is silly enough when I just talk about it.

Ok... you got me. I confess. I'm an elitist snob who expects more from a plot than "Xenos have landed on planet x. Are you a bad enough Space Marine dude to rescue planet x?". Occasionally, I play characters with more depth than stale cardboard. Once, I've even... had an in-character conversation . I plead guilty on all charges and hope to get off below one session FATAL.

Now, what were we talking about? Oh, right, the fact that your allegations were pretty baseless and that you seem to have bought the wrong game as Deathwatch seems to deliver pretty much what FFG promised (though a few less mistakes wouldn't have hurt the game).

Cifer said:

Ok... you got me. I confess. I'm an elitist snob who expects more from a plot than "Xenos have landed on planet x. Are you a bad enough Space Marine dude to rescue planet x?". Occasionally, I play characters with more depth than stale cardboard. Once, I've even... had an in-character conversation . I plead guilty on all charges and hope to get off below one session FATAL.

Um, I don't think I can recall anyone putting "hope to get off" and "FATAL" in the same sentence before...

HappyDaze said:

NO THEY ARE NOT! >

Now, back on topic... Yeah, I find it ironic that all the Wolfy psychic powers that rock on the table top have been mangled to complete and utter uselessness, whilst the more lacklustre ones (Fury of the Wolf Spirits, I'm looking at YOU) have been really raised on the pedestal. I must admit I was baffled at first by how weak in comparison the Wolves seem to be, but after reading this thread I've come to reconsider.

The Wolves are pretty solid, especially due to the Perform (Story Teller) skill working as a substitute for Command and them getting cheap-o Hardy at Rank 1; making them an excellent choice for the Tactical Marine specialty. Still, a Space Wolf psyker gets bitten in the posterior due to the difficulty of upgrading his FEL and the weakness of his early Chapter Powers; not to mention it appears there's only one "good" build for the SW psyker, the one with FotWS and Storm Caller.

One issue still remains, though... As fluffy and roleplay-y (not to mention cool) as it may be, no sane player will have their character walzing about without a helmet; the risk of receiving lead-laced long-distance lobotomy is just too darn big! Those 8 points of armor in the head are going to feel very precious when in the receiving end of a called shot from an Accurate weapon.

@Rhazagal

The Wolves are pretty solid, especially due to the Perform (Story Teller) skill working as a substitute for Command and them getting cheap-o Hardy at Rank 1; making them an excellent choice for the Tactical Marine specialty. Still, a Space Wolf psyker gets bitten in the posterior due to the difficulty of upgrading his FEL and the weakness of his early Chapter Powers; not to mention it appears there's only one "good" build for the SW psyker, the one with FotWS and Storm Caller.

No librarian is going to become a great leader of men. Then again, with the space wolf benefit, you can theoretically reach 60 Fellowship with a single upgrade (though 50 is probably more likely when you want to put more points/better rolls/whatever into willpower and other stats). Combining that with the cheap Perform skill hands you a friendly score of 80.

One issue still remains, though... As fluffy and roleplay-y (not to mention cool) as it may be, no sane player will have their character walzing about without a helmet; the risk of receiving lead-laced long-distance lobotomy is just too darn big! Those 8 points of armor in the head are going to feel very precious when in the receiving end of a called shot from an Accurate weapon.

There's quite a long debate about whether there should be some benefit to not wear your helmet, but the short of it probably is: You can put it off and on again with two half actions. As long as you secure the area before taking a sniff, you're probably in the clear.

@HappyDaze

Um, I don't think I can recall anyone putting "hope to get off" and "FATAL" in the same sentence before...

Well... to semi-quote the most infamous review of the abomination and its "rebuttal" by the creat- perpetrators: "So, basically, FATAL is the date **** RPG." - "Another faulty conclusion drawn by Darren. Where is dating included?"

Rhazagal said:

Actually, the Space Wolf player in my group ALWAYS goes without the helmet on. He declares that those who do not follow his lead, well.. are just cowardly.

There are good arguments on either side here as to whether the Wolves are short-changed.

There is an argument that the Dark angels get a raw deal as well although their skills are definitely more relevant to Deathwatch activities. Still the ravenwing talented (pilot) is a bit useless starting off as the marine doesn't have the pilot skill til rank three.

My conclusion - both sides are right. The core issue here is trying to reflect the unique character with about a dozen skills or talents. Everything the Space Wolves get is appropriate (and flavourful) but there should be more - a few hand to hand talents would not be out of place given their background as primitive warriors.

Hopefully we will see expanded chapter advances in future supplements. I can see why they kept it simple. You can bang out a marine in 20 minutes and get playing.

And remember my answer to everything - elite advances. Think of the careers and chapters as vague guidelines, butter up your GM and make the marine that you envision.

I'm wondering why Space Wolves don't get Resistance (Cold) for 100.

Cifer said:

To accuse your opponent of using strawmen when it is clearly not true (I even quoted one of the posts I disagreed with) is a cheap and dishonest strategy. I am too old to find pleasure in internet squabbling anymore, so if winning is this important to you, I cede the field. Congratulations, I guess.