Hi i'm just about to start GMing this game with 4 people (did it with my boyfriend and one of his friends for a practice) and am going to start with an eye for an eye. My group is interested in the social investigation side of the game and I just wanted to ask for some opinions on handling some situations i think i'll come across.

First a lot of NPCs will probably be lying to them, I was wondering about how to get the PC's to take an intuition check without going ' this guy could be lying, roll a check.' I was thinking of two ways to do this. Make the NPC to make a guile check against the highest intuition check in the group, and if they fail tell the PCs that they may suspect the NPC of lying. With this I wasn't sure if the success/fail rate of doing it this way round was the same as getting the PC to take an intuition check. My other idea was based on the fact that intuition checks weren't just to detect lies, and to get PCs to take them every now and then when engaging NPCs in conversation. I was planning on hiding the challenge dice from the PCs when doing this so they didn't know if they had passed or failed when I gave them the info, or the difficulty level.

(Also wanted to do this with Obv when going into a room, 'roll a daunting obv check' when the PC's enter seems to be a bit too much of a hint that there is something important there)

Right I know there was other stuff I wanted to ask about but i've forgotten right now... I may post here again ^^

Welcome to the world of GMing

My approach, in terms of NPC's lying, make clear to Players that it's their decision to roll, I don't call for a rolls everytime someone lies to them, I don't call for rolls whenever they might see something. They say they're willing to roll for this and that. I have had people make Observation checks when it was the wind and roll to tell if someone is lying who isn't. I explain that challenge dice and black dice don't always mean they're sneaky and spending ACE budget - it may mean it's hard to tell whether it's the wind or not, that the brewmaster is just such a cheerful fellow it's hard to imagine him being a liar (which is what the narrative effect of his black dice added to pool means).

So Players who check all the time may rack up some stress, on chaos stars may antagonise NPCs who otherwise would be friendly. Warhammer 3 is good in this respect in that Players Observation rolling and Inuitioning constantly may rack up stress.

Also, to avoid people knowing "success means I know for sure" and "failure means they could be lying", you can roll some challenge dice secretly. Was 3 successes really 3 successes and so when you said "they're being 100% straight with you" they are, or was it really 0 successes because of unseen failures?

I would also make clear to people that "you're a player too, just one with a different role". Not everything falls on GM's shoulders, everyone should be bringing creativity and imagination to table and not expecting you to be the dancing monkey there to entertain them.

In Warhammer, I really use the Party Fortune pool as a way of signalling, "okay that was cool, you made that fun for me" and the Tension meter as a way of saying "soooo not cool dude".

Rob

Sometimes I think its good to keep a note of which PC is the most intuitive, or the most observant, or money-wise or whatever. Then in situations where someone isn't being truthful you can say to the player(s) with the most intuitive character something like "it doesn't strike you as particularly plausible" if they aren't picking up on it themselves.

Or you could use it in another sort of way, so if the librarian is moaning about how hard he has to work all the time you could mention as an aside to the PC with the highest observation that the library is dusty and disorganised despite his claims that he works really hard, or that the coachman is sneering at his wounded companion complaining about his bad leg or something.

So in other words if the players are just not chasing clues or cross examining people I think it's OK to give them a couple of clues anyhow based on who is the most intuitive or observant on paper.

However, I wouldn't want to just let the players sit back and learn everything anyway. If your players are missing things because they aren't proactive I'd suggest that when you finish the module you could point out that they didn't question people or search for clues, and how it would have made things easier or more fun if they had - in the hope that they will be a bit more forthcoming in future.

Another way would be just to roll with it, and if they complain about not finding anything out offer tosell them a clue for a fortune point, and then use that to provide a relevant piece of info to the most intuitive/observant PC.

Eye for an eye is a really good adventure for social interaction, especially due to the large number of NPCs to play around with. It does require a bit of preperation to get familliar with all the NPCs and their wereabouts, but well worth it.

I allowed my players tests in intuition vs guile when they were talking to someone and they suspected him of lying. They might say "Does he seem to answer honestly?" Then i would allow them a check. I actually let them roll openly. There are a good number of NPCs in the adventure, and letting them realize that some of them are dishonest, only seemed to set the sceene and make them wonder just how many and if there was some sort of pattern.

During my session they fast picked up on the notion that some NPCs were drugged and then systematically tried to discovered who seemed slow, sleepy or clumsy in some way. Some obervation tests came in there.

As result towards the end of the adventure they had a pretty good idea of who might be involved in something and who were innocent.

With regards to hidden passages and discoveries in the various rooms, I usually describe the room, including bookcases, carpets or whatever else might contain a clue, but unless they take action on searching, no rolls are made. In case they search a room with no clues, of course they get to test anyway. As i don't conceal dice, my players feel confident of their result when rolling a success, but uncertain if they fail. - But that is really a matter of GM style i think. Personally i prefer to revard my players with the sense that they are making real progress when rolling well, either by discovery or by elemination.

In the rare case that there is something i just cannot let them discover early or there is something i really need them to see, i will just flat out leave it out or tell them "oh you notice bla bla bla". In Eye for and Eye, my only real worry was if they found the temple very early, grabbed the book and burned it, I would prolly have ruled that the book was not down there yet.

Hope you have a good adventure.

this is a youtube site full of dm's tips...

http://www.youtube.com/user/TheOutsiders68?feature=mhum

Thanks guys just about to start playing in an hour or two think I know what I'm going to do. At least one person I'm playing with has GM experiance so I'll have someone to give me advice as I go on ^^

Let us know how it goes!

Well after several hours play I think it went much better than I expected. The only in the fun was trying to get the first beastman combat right but with luck I think it will improve. Main trouble is I don't think one of the players is really interested in the role play side and hasn't done much, so while the others started chatting up the serving girls, befriended the guards and stole any slightly incriminating looking book from the library he searched one room, came up empty and decided to do nothing else for the rest of the session which was a bit disapointing and he looked pretty bored by the end. Kind of tricky when I want to do more role play than straight fighting but all in all it was a success thanks for people who replied

Just want to add my two cents:

Cent the First: One of my favorite parts of about 3E is the dice system, and what I like about it most of all is that it is player centric. I never roll for NPCs if I can arrange it so that the player assembles their dice pool and challenges me. It really helps, I think, keep the focus off of the GM as a player and and enemy which can be destructive to certain kinds of attitudes. Its also more fun for the PCs which is always good. In that vein I never hide checks or results or anything like that, my players have learned how to mitigate metagaming so there isn't much of an issue.

Cent the Second: Having the players ask for observation and intuition checks on their own is probably the best choice, and the one I prefer. But there is something they added to D&D4E that I think is really quite useful in this situation; passive perception. Passive perception is a static number, based on the perception skill, that says "this guy is always this perceptive when he is not actively using the skill." It allows you to set DCs and compare them to your player's passive perception without bringing the topic up to them, or rolling any dice and giving away that 'something is happening'.

I think this could be easily replicated in WFRP, their "Passive Observation/Insight" is their Int plus their respective skill levels and maybe an additional point for relevant specializations. You get a small number, lets say 5, and you say "Ok there is a secret door under this rug and if they have at least a 6 I will it into the narrative for whichever player meets that requirement." Its fluid, its simple, and you can prepare it ahead of time. If the players know you are using this mechanic they will act accordingly I think, given how bad the consequences for botching a roll in the game can be, I think they will be relieved to know that they are still considered to be aware of their surroundings without having to stick their neck out all the time.

silentarcher00 said:

It could be that he's uninterested in RPing, but it could also be he was either just a bit insecure and winded up leaving it all up to the other player. Or it could be a matter of what kind of character he's playing and what kind of situations came up. As a player, I sometimes don't see how my character can contribute to a sitation, or even have any reason to even want to contribute, and then I naturally take a back seat to other PCs.

silentarcher00 said:

If the player seems board, try to give him something to do. Have someone talk to him, if he is attractive have a tavern wench hit on him, have a pickpocket in town try to steal from him, have him witness a pickpocketing or the bartender shorting change. Tell him he needs to go to the bathroom after he's had a few drinks and have him see the cook catching rats for the pies. (actually, I have been able to include more little details and the like while obligatory 'bathroom breaks' in game than you'd ever imagine ... it is just a good opportunity to get one pc away from the others and have him stumble upon/overhear something. Unless you're playing a very cinematic game, I always recommend trying it out - just be sure to have nothing important happen half the time as well, so the players don't realize 'bathroom break' is always a cue that something is about to be revealed)

Adding details only that character notices, or small things that directly target that character, can really help to draw someone into the game. Remember, too, that not all clues are going to be revealed by dice ... allowing the less active characters to occasionally notice something without calling for a roll is entirely within your power as a GM. (just don't do this so often that the people with the skills and specializations to be good observers start to feel like they got cheated ... moderation is the key to all things)

If you still can't draw the player out, talk to him after or before the game and say "hey, you seemed a little bored last week, is there anything I can do to help make the game more fun for you?" Whenever you can, communicate with your players. Now, if he says "I don't like roleplaying" or "this adventure doesn't interest me" you are limited in what you can do. If the latter you can try to find out what would interest him, and try to work that in somewhere ... if the former you just have to continue trying to throw him a hook every session and wait for him to come around.

Ideas to help add flavor, just in general:

Take the players' skills and interests into account and try to work them into a game. Let the gambler join a game at the tavern; have him bash into a fleeing dwarf who drops his weighted dice and let the pc decide what to do with them. The ratcatcher can hear stories about giant man-rats in the sewers, or tales of missing ratcatchers who hid away a lifetime of savings somewhere - later perhaps the party can take an afternoon to look for it. (or just that pc if he has the time - though try not to make solo adventures during the game take too much stage time) The fitghter types might get drug into contests of strength or agility, like arm wrestling and dart throwing; or they might get swept up in a friendly barroom brawl. A prostitute might start showing an interest in one of the priests and try to get him to talk about his god while at the tavern - whathaveyou.

Sometimes people stumble on interesting things. Next time a party member searches a room or picks a pocket, etc. have him discover something interesting, even if it doesn't have to do with the immediate adventure. Bits of map, notes from sick family members, love letters, letter asking for aid or offering to hire an assassin; strange jewelry that seems quite old or out of place, a locket in a humans house with the picture of a dwarf maid inside, a gem in a garbage can - why was it throw away?

The players aren't the only sneaky thieves or eager priests in town - colorful encounters are good.

etc.

some great ideas there jack!

Yeah Jack, great tips there.

I have a couple players who are definately out of their element when put into RP social situations. For the first couple sessions I just catered to their desire for battle and slowly as the mechanics became more apparent and accessible they opened up to the idea of acting. I then ran a few solo adventures for the characters to help their players build back stories so that they could make/find motivations for RPing their characters properly. It has seemed to draw those players that seemed uninterested at first right into the game as a whole. I have yet to see how they are going to play once we get back together for a full group session, as we've been on hiatus due to unforeseen circumstance for the last two weeks. Its coming along slowly but I can see it really taking off once the creature guide/vault is released.

Now to find other Narrators so I can have a crack at playing!

Nice thread, all. Great nuggets for any GM!