Zandarthis said:

I recommend a HB ROF of 6 or 7 max.

Alex

ak-73 said:

When I started running this game I didn't realize how unbalanced the HB was now I have a Dev running around killing Hive Tyrants in one turn. I said 8 because otherwise the Storm Bolter shoots faster :-P but its probably a good idea. What are your thoughts on my version of the AC?

Zandarthis said:

I am still a bit unsure about the AC. Various people have suggested various fixes, including felling, devastating, storm qualities.

Btw, here's my proposed list of fixes (the AC hasn't been decided on though):

www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp

Perhaps something like the Razor Sharp Weapon Quality would do best for the Assault Cannon?

Alex

Steve-O said:

Um, no.

1,000 rounds per second is 60,000 rounds per minute and there isn't a conventional weapons system in existence (Metal Storm excluded) that can fire that fast. This also applies to 40k... and the fact that its ammo supply from the backpack is only 250 rounds (a quarter second of fire and a melted action of the weapon). As for a modern day equivalent, the General Electric M134 has a maximum firing rate of 6,000 rounds per minute (i.e. 100 rounds per second) which is a tenth of your count. Keep in mind that is a 7.62x51mmNATO (.30 cal) round so its fairly light. The GAU-8 (the rotary cannon on the A-10 Thunderbolt aircraft) fires a 30x173mm round (for comparison a .50 cal is measured as 12.7x99mm) at 4,200 rounds per minute. The GAU-12 (a rotary cannon on an AC-130 gunship) fires a 25mm (i.e. .98 cal) round at a maximum of 4,200 rounds per minute. The GAU-13 (mounted on F-16 fighter jets) also fires the 30x173mm round at 2,400 rounds per minute. The Russians also have the GSh-6-23 (23x115mm) and GSH-6-30 (30x166mm). The GSh-6-23 has a fire rate of 10,000 rounds per minute and the GSh-6-30 has a maximum fire rate of 6,000 rounds per minute.

And there are multiple terms for automatic weapons with multiple rotating barrels: minigun, rotary cannon, and gatling gun. A gatling gun was operated and fired by a hand crank and was used around the 1860s (the US Civil War). A minigun and rotary cannon is operated by an electric motor. A rotary cannon is a weapon that fires very large caliber rounds (greater than 15mm or so) while a minigun is used for smaller rounds.

To tie this rant in, these weapons are all 6 barreled weapons and the autocannon has either 6 or 8 so the barrels could indeed cool a little better, depending on their title of "cannon" they are large caliber. Their fire rate at standard is 10 rounds per turn (~6 seconds?). So the storm quality may be in order here.

The Russian said:

One literal rant deserves another

Autocannons in 40k are typically single barreled rapid-firing cannons similar to light armor guns (think something like the Bradely's 25mm), but have a slower rate of fire. Assault cannons are the 6 (or 8 depending on the model you're looking at) rotary barreled guns you're talking about, and were created to replace the autocannons on older terminators.

As for cooling, we are in M41 here, and the components of the weapon are probably better at distributing heat than our modern counterparts, though the fluff certainly describes the heat problem as helping make the weapon so prone to jamming (which nicely skirts the idea that electric powered guns would jam less, not more). Also I don't think there is a clear marker on how long a standard 'turn' actually takes in seconds, though I could be way off there.

Given all of that, a litterall 1000 rounds a second is high in the realm of realism for me as well, but doubling the rate of fire (essentially storm) at least makes it feel like it has a higher rate of fire than the HB or other automatic weapons and fills it's niche better. I also like the reduced range, as all accounts indicate it's a lower range weapon with a higher rate of fire.

Charmander said:

Ah, I meant assault cannons. My bad. Your literal rant is a good one, good sir.

I feel inclined to give the weapon the storm quality and reduce the number of rounds it fires somewhat. I also feel as though its armour penetration should be improved a touch to represent its ability to tear through light armour vehicles.

Assault Cannon : Mounted 100M -/-/8 3D10+6 I Penetration 7 400 rounds 3 Full Tearing, Storm

I feel that the number of D10 precludes the use of the felling property as one turn from the devastator would ruin a hive tyrants day

Imo the storm quality is best to represent an Assault cannon. It also consumes x2 the ammo each turn, which is nice.

I would be inclined to leave the RoF at -/-/10. This would limit it to 10 shots before reloading is required. 9 degrees of success is uncommon anyway (<10%?)...

9 DoS becomes much less uncommon when you factor in the fact that your Dev probably has 50-60 BS + 60 in modifiers, giving 20-30% chance of 9 DoS, with only .6% chance of a Jam (You did pick up an Exceptional Assault cannon, right?).

Assuming +60 in mods... So it's only 30% with maximal mods. Which is maybe 10% of the time?

My point is that there is little practical difference between RoF 8 and 10. The extra ammo consumption seems more fitting imo.

Have you played Deathwatch? Maximal mods happen all the time, especially versus hordes. It's very easy to get +60. Full Auto + Short Range + size = 60. Going with single targets, add some equipment mods. Full Auto + Motion Predictor + Short Range + Signum Link + Signum = +55. Pick Immovable Warrior instead of Unrelenting Devastation and you hit +60. Or shooting from higher ground, Size mod, stunned enemy, Surprise/Unaware, Point blank.

With even a tiny bit of effort, your Dev can be shooting at or near +60 every round. And, of course, he could have up to 75 BS on his own. So, absolute max chance for 9 DoS is 45%.

I play a Devastator actually. There are a fair number of times I get +60, but not >50% of the time - not that I am keeping detailed records... We are still Rank 1 with basic renown, so no cool upgrades yet. I think I can only recall one time where I scored 9 DoS.

You might argue that, as we are talking about Terminator weapons, we should assume a Rank 6+ characters - who might have 70 BS and all the extra bing too.

I felt that giving the weapon a total of 16 hit as opposed to 20 with a complete success was more reasonable

If 16 hits is reasonable, why not 20?

But seriously, rethinking this in the context of a Rank 6+ Terminator Dev with BS 70+ and Motion Predictor et al, why not forget the Storm Quality and give a RoF of -/-/15.

Given BS 75 and +60 mod = 135. Maximum 13 DoS potential = 14 hits. If he somehow managed to get BS of >80 then a 15 hit result is possible.

that's why I said "more" reasonable.... Ammo capacity should be 320 rather than 400 now that I think about it.

I also like the storm quality for the imagery it evokes. It seems like the bullets coming from the assault cannon are coming so fast they are producing a wall of rounds.

Although I agree that the RAW autocannon isn't that great when compared to a Heavy Bolter, I honestly think adding the Storm quality is ott. It's just too much.

Upping the RoF allows high BS and lucky rolls to approach the level of hits you are wanting. Giving the AC the highest RoF in the game fits imo.

The only weapons with the Storm quality, that I know of, are the Storm Bolter and the Defcannon. Both these have two barrels firing at the same time. So giving the AC Storm would be stepping further from established game principles. I like to keep houserules modest.

that's a fair statement. I look at rotator cannons of that kind of calibre and think anti light armour. When the weapon is in use the whole hill the terminator stands upon vibrates as though the world itself will shake apart. With the game mechanics that we have at our disposal currently it's hard to manifest that crazy kind of ordinance. maybe I will work out some other kind of mechanic but the storm function felt like the easiest band aid that was available.

Note that the description of the Storm quality does not require two barrels. Often it's so, implying - not always.

Alex

how about 3D10+6 I penetration 7 RoF -/-/6 Special: Storm, Tearing, Devastating(2) Ammo: 240 Reload: 3 full Range: 100M

15 hits is too high given BS limits and no space marine would use a weapon that had a rate of fire that they could not effectively control with some certainty. If I gave a soldier a weapon and said it fired 60 rounds at once but they where likely to hit with 30 then they would ask why didn't you make the weapon fire in thirty round bursts. Its just too obvious a logic failure for me to ignore.

Well, I've had a search through the rules and I cannot see where this cap of +60 is written...

So, as far as I can see the following modifiers are possible:

Massive target: +30

Point Blank range: +30

Full Auto: +20

Aim (previous round): +20

Total Mod: +100

So 14+ degrees of success it perfectly possible. So I favour RoF -/-/15

Except that you are limited to +60 bonus.

E

Page number and quote please.

Our gaming group went with much different aproach to solve problems with AC.

First of all, greatest drawback : Renown: Famed, Terminator mounted. Witch basically puts this weapon at endplay, rank6+. And ofc Storm Bolter with some cool ammo beats AC on full auto.

Also (forgive me lame comparision) AC is more like modern Gatling and HB more like rocket shooting m249 or PKM.

AAC: Mounted. 100m, -/-/10or20(u chose), 2d10+6, pen:6, tearing, with special two house rules

each DoS gives additional 2 hits when on short range, 3 hits on point blank (we test 4now).

each hit to same location increase pen by +2 and damage by +2 (first bullet to body: base damage and penetration, 2nd hit: +2pen +2 dam, 3rd hit: +4pen +4dam and so on) on shorter ranges its easy to get almost Rending efficiency to even light vehicles. We still test different base damage and other combinations as for now it works.

@fresnel

p244, Deathwatch core book, in Chapter VIII: Combat, section Attack, under the paragraph titled "Step one: Apply Modifiers to Attacker's Characteristic

"The maximum total bonus that can be applied to a test is +60. Conversely, the maximum total penalty that can be applied to a test is -60..."