Brother Praetus said:

If I didnt despise fear ratings with a passion, I would say this is pretty darn good stuff!

Things can and very obviously do cause fear. Daemons are terrifying, minor daemons are terrifying. They have an unnaturally terrifying aura beyond something like an ork or a horde of cultists. Even something like a nurgling should be causing the average human to haemorrage sanity. Daemons are simply not something encountered in the real world and are uniquely formed to attack the most vulnerable and personal parts of a sentient creature's psyche. They are formed from our own emotions after all, they KNOW how to get to you (and simply exude it naturally). The ordo malleus is a section of the inquisition devoted to direct daemon hunting - psycho indoctrinated space marines and the most powerful inquisitors in the imperium. If that's what the response to daemons is, then the average cell of acolytes should not expect to waltz in.

Daemons are fought by armies and still cause them to route in terror. A daemon may be easy to banish back to the warp because their physical form is weak, but then that's part of why they use fear. Fear is one of their most powerful weapons, used to make it harder for you to attack them.

Now the problem as I see it is more that the Fear ratings are pretty harsh, not that Fear Ratings themselves are a problem.

What I would perhaps do is something like this:

Fear:

Some entities, aliens or ideas are so horrifying that they can paralyse or render insane even the most hardened soldier. Creatures that cause Fear are listed with a difficulty level associated to reflect how hard it is to resist their presence.

Fear (Easy +30) - gnasher squigs, a horde of angry peasants

Fear (Routine +20) - an enraged grox, sabre wolves, a mob of angry orks, Genestealer

Fear (Ordinary +10) - a force of space marines (chaotic or otherwise), an ork nob, Tyranid Warrior, a Nurgling swarm, a space marine terminator, ork warboss

Fear (Challenging 0) - Bloodletters, daemonettes, a brood of tyranid warriors, a carnosaur

Fear (Difficult -10) - a carnifex, fiend of slannesh, necron flayed one unit, plaguebearer, daemonhost

Fear (Hard -20) - Daemon prince, hive tyrant, unbound daemonhost, Necron Pariah

Fear (Very Hard -30) - Bloodthirster, Lord of Change

And so on.

You could also apply a modifier based on numbers and ensure that only one test is ever made per encounter (**** I hate that word). So something like:

Outnumbered up to 2:1 - increase difficulty by one step.

Outnumbered 3:1 or more - increase difficulty by two steps.

This would be a little subjective, as in the above a 'horde' of angry peasants causes Fear (easy) for a group of acolytes. Which means that you'd need 3 'hordes' of peasants to outnumber acolytes 3:1.

Also, it would probably help if the Shock table wasn't so severe instantly. If it worked more like the psychic phenomena/perils table where you had to roll really high to get the worst results.

The initial Fear result (half action) should probably be 01-30/40, rather than 20. There should be a 'lose next turn but may use reactions' result after that, then the 'at -10 til end of encounter' or maybe have one in between where you're at -10 for 1/1d5 rounds. these would incur 1 insanity point each. This should cover the first ~80 on the shock table, ensuring that only the scariest things cause the most debilitating responses.

Fear should be part of the game and daemons should be causing it disproportionate to their stature, but perhaps it needs to be spread out more with a greater number of lesser fear results.

Hellebore

Eh. Personally I would venture forth that the largest problem comes from the results of the fear table - the reason people have an issue with fear is it has the potential to automatically remove players from combat, and combat is generally never fast. Horrible consequences can be dealt with, but horrible consequences as a result of flat out losing control of your character (or just losing control of your character in general) are never fun.

I agree with the idea that it should focus more on, at most maybe, losing a round and than being penalized in later rounds if you roll horribly, but I just can't really see something like a Chaos Space Marine being treated as an "ordinary" test. Much like Daemons are anathema to our existence/minds, Chaos Space Marines are anathema to the Imperium. Hell, I don't believe that its even known that there *are* fallen marines by the vast majority of the population, but I cant remember where I read that.

I am fine with penalties being high, but think that acolytes should have a better ability to "snap out of it"; they are "special" individuals after all. It seems to be more reflected with Pure Faith opening up to a larger variety of characters via Blood of the Martyrs, and with the right group composition you can get some heavy benefits to your fear roll (support psykers, faith users.etc.etc), but it shouldnt be able to remove characters easily.

Additionally, I believe it is only one fear test per encounter?

OK, if we are talking RAW, then I am gonna stand by my original statement about fearless being required to play the game...

If we are gonna go the house rules route (we are in house rules afterall!) Then I would say...

Sure... ORDINARY people should go nuts.

But as it states in the book, the acolytes are NOT ordinary people. It goes on to say that they are exactly what chaos powers seek to corrupt. Normal people dont really get corruption points... They usually just die.

Monsters should get a fear rating because they DESERVE a fear rating.

a few things I would do to detox fear alittle...

1) any encounter where acolytes defeat a fear causing entity soundly, should render them immune to future fear attempts by that monster.

2) any encounter where acolytes defeat a fear causing entity with difficulty should have the fear rating for that particular monster reduced appropriately. multiple instances (tho not in the same encounter) of that entity should reduce it, provided they earn the reduction.

3) any encounter where they flee a combat, should result in no change.

4) any encounter where the acolytes are defeated badly (IE burning fate points possibly?) etc, should result in an INCREASE in fear rating for that creature...

I also might consider the following...

Monsters that do not normally possess a fear rating, that kick your ass, or otherwise appropriately intimidate you, should gain a fear rating against you! (tho this should not allow for warp corruption points, in the event of warp entity without a fear rating, since this isnt a real fear rating, only a players nightmare made manifest).

This last caveat allows for real monsters that deserve a fear rating, imagine a slaugh (it has one, so its bad example... but imagine it didnt have it) to actually get a fear rating.

The net result is the GM can add a fear rating to real, and recurring monsters over the course of a game, and snip the fear rating from undeserving monsters... AKA daemonettes, etc, without losing that inital fresh out of the box scare factor that they might cause, such as the first time you face down a nurgling or something

Now we can then use the frame work that Brother Praetus put out alittle earlier in this thread, and fear is solved quite nicely!

You can run it like that if you want, but it honestly sounds rather.. Extensively long since you need to keep track of a lot of extra variables. However I do raise a brow at the "monsters that don't deserve it" - daemons are daemons; whether a daemon is weaker or not is not part of the equation, they are something anathema to reality, the manifestation of the darkest of emotions, and by nature of what they are, ******* with your mind if you so much as notice them. Just because it has weaker stats does not make it less horrifying to see, and just means its more likely it should be used in a group. As someone has said, for a "weaker" daemon, fear is a big part of it, and why they aren't so weak.

Fearless is not required to play the game, and it can lead to acolyte deaths. Does it help? Sure, but you can also become immune to fear simply through insanity exposure, or the pure faith that has been thrown into the game for nearly everyone as of Blood of Martyrs, or by good supporting characters with you - a Pure Faith user can be a great asset, and a Psyker can help boost up those Fear saves considerably as well. But one of the larger aspect is fear generating characters aren't really meant to be thrown out willy nilly. They should be rare. This does create a problem because it requires the GM to be aware and take advantage of this, because too many fear creatures simply sucks because the fear chart can punish you pretty hard sometimes.

I've got to agree with the majority here: DH isn't D&D where you go around slapping demons from level 2 up - it's more like a more survivable version of Call of Cthulhu, where reading the wrong book can turn you insane. Daemons don't have a Fear rating because they're fearsome in combat, but because their very presence in the material realm is wrong, an abomination against everything good and proper and a thing a human mind actively resists acknowledging. Daemonhunters are mostly occupied ensuring they don't ever have to hunt any daemons by eradicating cults before they manage summoning one.

As for the daemonettes, their fear rating is exactly the point! Read up on the lore: most "fights" against them basically consist of the opposing force standing around, running away or twiddling their thumbs while the daemonettes finish them off at their leisure. If daemonettes go up against a blank, someone with Pure Faith or a tech-priest sufficiently removed from their silly emotions, they're screwed (or not screwed, as the case may be). If you don't have one of those, forget everything your biology teacher has told you and get some drugs to incite frenzy.

If you're prepared, there are quite a number of measures that can be taken to ease the problems. If you're unprepared, running away is usually the best option anyway. Regarding the corruption points dealt out, guess why the Inquisition often executes entire guard regiments that have been engaged in fighting with chaos opponents.

Other than that, however, Deathwatch indicates that there should ever only be a single fear check per encounter, with high (horde) amounts of fear-causing enemies only upgrading their Fear rating by one.

''. Daemonettes... utterly worthless gimp daemons...''

Just a small, minute detail...don't diss Daemonettes. I checked the current Chaos Daemons codex for 40k (different game, yes, but I imagine that it holds some weight here, no?), and I can't help but notice that they come with Rending Claws (6 on a d6 to hit is auto-wound, no armor save), initiative 6 and 3 base attacks, 4 in charge...

If this doesn't mean anything to you (if you've not played 40k), this all spells 1 thing: Space Marine killers, since the fancy power armour doesn't help in any way. If you really need stats, here they are: a squad of 20 Daemonettes vs a squad of 10 Marines, maximising numbers for the sake of argument, which means 4*20=80 attacks for any sensible player, of which 1/6 auto kill, so 80/6=13.33333... I think I prove my point.

If a Daemonette is quick and powerful enough to kill a Space Marine before he can fight back, then surely a poor Acolyte doesn't stand much of a chance, does he? So perhaps that Fear rating 3 is justified then?

Sticking to the rules and stats given in this, it still sticks: you might notice that a Daemonette has 50 in AGI, which means 50% chance to Dodge anything you throw at her? Oh, and 2 attacks a round (I'd be tempted to give them 3, since they have claws on both arms...), with Tearing. Oh, and impose a WP at -10 to avoid only having a Half Action.

Do I need to carry on?

Arcaia said:

Your tabletop math is incorrect. Rending in 5th edition automatically wounds without armor saves on a to-wound roll of 6, not the to-hit (which is rolled normally).

Your assessment, however, is valid, insofar as the stats SHOULD be representing a really nasty monster in combat, and the provided stats fall a bit short sometimes.

Unusualsuspect said:

Okay, I'll admit that I only remember the 4th edition version of Rending since I've never played 5th edition. The changes in the math therefore are 50% of 80 attacks hit, so 40, wound on a 5+, which is 1/3 of a chance, so 40/3=13.3333 wounds among which you would likely get 6-7 auto kills (let's say 6) and the remaining 7 kill on a 1-2 (so again, 1/3 kill), which is around 2. Result: you kill 2 to 3 less Space Marines than in 4th edition.

On another note, I was surprised to find out that they only have 35 in WS. I'd have thought that they'd deserve atleast 40. I guess that it's skills lie more in the 50 AGI and 30 FEL that the Bloodletter lacks.

While they should be tougher, Daemons cause fear because they are reality- and mind-bending Eldritch Abominations, not because they are intrinsically more dangerous than other things. (If that were the standard, Carnosaurs and indeed Grox would have high Fear ratings.)

EDIT: Whoops Cipher already said that.

EDIT 2: Daemonettes do not have Primitive weapons. Check the errata: 1d10+5 R, Pen 3, Tearing.

Inquisitor sapiens potensque said:

Yeah, I made the post before having read the errata. All it does is make them better.

I agree with what you say about their fear rating, I wasn't trying to suggest that pure fighting ability is what merits them such a high fear rating. What I was arguing against is the impression that they are pitiful and worthless - no daemon should be treated that way. ALL of them are meant to be dangerous in their own way, especially those associated with the 4 gods, and especially if they can take down Space Marines with great ease. In a game, a Daemonic incursion shouldn't be a step along to countering a threat - it should be the very threat itself.