Hey, after reading a bit more up on Las weaponry in 40k (main scource 40k lexicanum), it seems it's common for Lasguns of different kinds to either be undercharged or overcharged. The latter we have through the Overcharge pack ammo or the Hot-Shot ammo, but there is nothing on undercharging it.

Now why would you want to do that? Well for a typical Guardsman fighting orks, tyranids, eldars and other horrible xenos, you wouldn't. But it seems that undercharging can make a nonlethal attack that may incapacitate the target.

Now I think it would be fun to make some rules on it, if only to give Lasguns some more utility, but maybe also to provide acolytes some way to take enemies alive other than through intimidation, pummeling unconscious or relying on lucky criticals that cause enough fatigue/ unconsciousness.

Now we don't want to make them too powerful - in essence it should always be more effective to use lethal fire if you just want to take down an enemy as quickly as possible - but still being able to take out enemies slower but less chance of killing.

Here are a couple of examples:

Stun setting: damage changes from 1d10+3 to 1d5+2. If the target takes damage in excess of armor bonus, he must succeed on a toughness (at -10 per point of wound taken) test or gain one level of fatigue.

As before, but fatigue is automatic if damage exceeds armor.

As before, but in addition to fatigue there is a chance of stun as if hit by a Shock Weapon.

As an option, change AB to TB in the previous examples.

Completely different take: Damage is as normal, except half of it (rounded up) is instead dealt as temporary toughness damage. Once T reaches zero, the target falls unconscious automatically. Or instead of temp. Toughness damage it becomes "stun wounds" which causes unconsciousness once the "stun wounds" supersedes your total wounds.

So here are a few half-baked suggestions, any comments?

And please no "I don't think stun settings are necessary", I know they are not but I think they might be nice to have, after all it's a staple of space operas.

SO the guidelines should be:

1. Not more effective than normal fire.

2. Should not be completely harmless, we are talking about light burns at the very least.

3. Should be possible to use on normal people, maybe even one in Guard Flak.

4. Should not be "frying pan to the head" effective... should be little or no chance of one-shot stunning.

5. Should not be an exploit to hurt otherwise almost impervious monsters or give them penalties that normal (critical) damage could not.

One issue that comes straight to mind with a "stun setting" for the lasgun is how the weapons deals damage in the first place. It pumps out either a laser or a burst of heated particles (depending on what background you're using), so a lower setting is only likely to cause less burning and destruction with each hit as opposed to stunning.

One solution would be to alter the combat system so that wounds damage can also lead to fatigue, eventually knocking out enemies from sheer blood loss and tissue damage.

Ignoring the pointed comment about how Las weapons deal damage, there is already a weapon damage type which DOES stun/knock out: that's Shock weapons.

It might be easiest to simply make a chargepack type which "alters" the damage type to 'shock' (or at least mimics some of its effects...) forcing those who take damage to test Toughness i the manner described inte the Shock quality's description on p. 129.One thing to consider, however, is that this might make Las weapons pretty powerful, compared to other Shock weapons, at least in certain contexts. Your idea of halving the damage of the weapon I think is a good start for this kind of effect. Or maybe the effect from the Las weapon is less than ideal so the target gets bonuses to the Toughness test.

I know on DarkReign there was an alternate set of rules for Las weapons which equipped them with a power selector for high, medium and low power settings, as well as modification to RoF and penetration. I don't recall a stun mode but I really agreed with the spirit of the house rules suggested. You might want to check it out for ideas as it tries to do what you seem to be interested in which is to make the Las weapon more versitile and fun to use, as opposed to something you discard as soon as a "better" gun comes along...

I'm very interested in hearing what you come up with!

Thanks for responses.

I'm not overly concerned about realism of Las weapons, since the weapons are inherently unrealistic.

But I'm starting to think that the ranged fatigue is the way to go. Now you could ask, why wouldn't lethal version also deal fatigue damage? Well, frankly they do. All the critical tables have various entries of up to 1d10 fatigue damage. So I think I will try to mimick the crit system for the "stun" setting.

As you said, there are already Shock weapons and these have their niche - so I think I won't allow Lasguns to outright Stun the target but rather wear him down with pain until he drops.

So I think I will stick with the damage 1d5+2 (or rather halve die and -1 base damage), making laspistols 1d5+1). Some Lasguns, like Hellguns and Hot-Shot Lasguns aka. improved Hellguns (as shown in Ascension), might simply be too powerul to allow such a low damage setting, and would at best do normal lasgun damage instead.

To have another advantage, I'm considering either +50% "clip" or +100% when using low power setting, to represent the less drain on power packs.

Anyway, the idea could simply be that once the target is at 0 wounds from this attack, further stun damage will deal fatigue (1d5 per hit, or 1d10 on a Fury) instead of Critical Damage.

The problem with reducing damage like this is that the combined TB +AB will auto-soak the damage if the target has guard flak or normal flak with high TB. SO maybe have the reduction of damage AFTER soak? So normal damage on hit (1d10+3 etc.), then halve the wounds taken. It will still be more damage than the 1d5+2 after soak with TB 3, but taking down even people with 10 wounds and no armor will take 3-4 hits on average.

Sounds good?

Background wise if you need a non-lethal weapon you either use weapons like shock mauls on lower settings (as already mentioned), or you go for a needler equipped with a non-lethal load (which have long been the kidnapper's weapon of choice). Unfortunately the latter is not statted up in Dark Heresy, but I am sure it is possible along similar lines to what you have done with the lasgun. Do the poison rules provided with the GM's screen give options for non lethal poisons?

Personally I don't like the idea of a non-lethal lasgun, as it just doesn't fit. Lasguns are not the omni-tools phasers are, they are just weapons. of course what you want might be entirely different. On the fact that armoured people would essentially be immune, that kinda fits. By lowering the power of the weapon you are limiting the damage it will do to a person, but you are also limiting its ability to punch through armour. Again, it's not like a phaser, which seems to deliver a shock across the entire body, making armour, or at least unsealed armour, useless. Lowering the power still leaves it as a a tight beam which has to defeat whatever armour it strikes.

I agree with Borithan, lasguns probably shouldn't come in a stun version. It is the mass-produced standard weapon of the Imperium and it is meant for one thing only, to kill the enemies of the Emperor in the field of battle. I really doubt that the mechanicum would change such a reliable design to do something like stunning people, in general the Imperium is not interested in prisoners. Arbiters might use shock weapons, but probably specialized ones, not modified lasguns. (Yes, that is a "no-stun" argument, but it is more in favor of making a special stun weapon instead of just not having stun)

Then again, it will probably exist somewhere (although what the local Tech-Priest has to say about it is a good question). Personally I would probably just add the Shock effect to the weapon and then decrease it's range by half. I'd also make it a special version of the lasgun rather than say an ammo-pack since making the lasgun stun instead of just kill would probably mean a major refit.

I've read somehwere, a long time ago that the theory behind turning a laser into a stunweapon is to utilize the laser beam as a current for electricity. First the laser ionizes the air creating a small path that can be used to send an electrical pulse. If we translate this to 40k, you could have an add on on your gun (like the exterminator) that gives the lasrifle the shocking special ability. It is up to you, if said lasrifle uses its full power or an undercharged one.

In my game people canfind lasgun paks specifically designed to issue a stunning shock. It deals normal damage + the stunning quality.

The idea is it is produced/used for local magistratum or PDF forces who aren't equipped or trained to deal with full-scale riots or major civil disturbances in the same way as Arbites or Imperial Guard. This also shows some love to folks who use lasguns and only have 3 ammo choices while SP people are rocking over 20.

Just to remind you all, I'm looking for las weapons to incapacitate foes, probably through attrition. While Stun may be a nice benefit, it's not really requires as we already have weapons for that, and Stun is a debuff, not a means to take prisoners (albeit it is easier to subdue a stunned opponent).

I guess the question to ask is: how many decent hits, with average damage, do you think should be required to subdue the average individual? From then, just roll the numbers.

I think that you could easily make it: half damage, with each wound scored counting as a level of Fatigue instead. (As you've mentioned) This will make the weapon failry effective against unarmoured targets, but make it more difficult to bypass armoured troops. I am assuming that it would still be possible to use a lasgun on stun with its semi-auto firing mode, so it is entirely likely that a good, solid semi-auto burst with a half decent roll would knock out the target.

On the other hand, if you wanted to up the potential for knock-out (and make the weapon more Start Trek phaser-like), I would keep the 50% damage, but allow the weapon to bypass part or all of the target's armour. (like making the armour count as Primitive, for instance).

Anyhow, just some suggestions.

Macharias the Mendicant said:

1 level Fatigue per 2 damage? Seems a bit high:

Acolyte: 14 wounds, 4 TB. If he would take 9 damage from a lasgun hit (average), that translates to 5 levels of fatigue, enough to knock him out in one shot, however with only wound damage he would be fine and at no penalty to fight (just heavily wounded).

So no, I would like the wounds to be just as effective against these attacks, if not more. Targets should not take fatigue damage until they would have reached 0 wounds (and thus be eligible for criticals.

Armor or no armor. Hmmm, Well I don't need the Trek phaser, but then again the point of the "stun" attack is to pummel a foe with low-energy lasblasts. While their armor protects well against burns and stuff, I would imagine blunt trauma and pain would take it's toll anyway. More later-

Friend of the Dork said:

- So I would like this attack to be not completely useless against armor (perhaps barring such as Power Armor, but that can be said for normal Lasgun damage anyway), but less damaging in total than normal. Which leads me to halve damage after "soak", or after TB and AB is subtracted from the damage.

SO... normal damage, then after soak damage to wound is halved, and once at 0 Wounds further damage causes 1d5 levels of fatigue (unless it's lethal damage, in which case use critical tables as appropriate).

This means it's better to start shooting lethal and then switch to "stun", which might seem weird, but on the other hand you avoid the risk of getting a Fury with the "stun" setting, or a Fury is less likely to kill if you use "stun" from the start.

And as far as I can see it's not possible to abuse such a "stun" setting since you don't do fatigue damage until the target would be getting criticals anyway.

Do you agree?

Friend of the Dork said:

I misspoke: what I meant is that you have the weapon deal half damage and then ONLY if the target would take damage you translate the remaining wounds of damage into levels of fatigue.

Using your example above: your acolyte with a TB bonus of 4 who gets hit with 5 (9/2, round up) damage, would in fact soak 4 wounds and only take 1 level of fatigue.

You suggestion may work. I don't imagine it's any more powerful or prone to abuse than any other weapon or damage type.I guess the only way to know it to try it: run a few mock combats with oppoenents of different levels to see if you get the desired effect.

Honestly though, if what you want is simply to have a weapon that replaces regular critical damage with a stun/knockout, why not simply make it a charge pack that does regular damage (or maybe -1 dmg or whatever) but replaces all critical damage with levels of fatigue instead. (either equal to the damage rolled or 50% of it) That way you would have to worry about different sets of mechanics for real damage or stun damage. I'm not sure that such a weapon would find a place in my group, but it seems like what you're looking for.

Keep in mind that an opoenent reduced to 0 wounds then knocked out would be heavily injured when they came to and would take days and days to heal back up to their regular wound total. That might be more "damaging" than you envisioned, which is why I personally would prefer a system closer to the unarmed damage rules, where damage deal translates into a level of fatigue. That means that an arbites team armed with las guns could take down an opponent with 1 or 2 bursts of semi-auto las fire. And when their prisoner comes to, they have bruises and some minor burns but nothing that would take too long to heal, or cause long-term damage.

That comes later, during the interrogation.

Sister Callidia said:

There is a lasweapon (somewhere in the books) that has the Shocking Quality and functions more or less along the lines you've covered. I'll have to go through things and see if I can find it again. I think it was either in Radical's Handbook or; less likely, Ascension .

-=Brother Praetus=-

it may well be the Xenarch Death-Arc, found in the Radicals Handbook (page 201) that you're thinking of.

Thamilus said:

I am fairly sure that was not it. The Death-Arc can be absolutely devastating. I know it's not the Lightning Canon from Into the Storm , because I remember seeing this prior to that books release. But I cannot for the life of me find it again. Maybe I'm crossing systems again.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Macharias the Mendicant said:

Even with your suggestion, the acolyte in the example may be better off just taking the 9 wounds (soaked to 5) than to take a level of fatigue, which actually affects his performance in combat.

As for your second suggestion, I was thinking something along that line, but I want this attack to be less effective, thus the halving of damage. The rule about 1 critical damage=1 level of fatigue might work. Less random, and more dependent on weapon damage/talents/good damage roll. Or maybe even go all the way and have it deal 1d5 fatigue per Critical damage! That may seem much, but since the damage is halved already it takes quite a bit to get someone to take critical damage from the attack in the first place, and such a person would almost certainly be dead if the damage was lethal.

Acolyte with 3 TB, Armored Bodyglove and 13 wounds:

Shots hit for 6, 8, 12, 13, 10, 10, 10, 10 damage: actual wounds sufffered would be 0, 1, 3, 4, 2, 2, 2, 2. This translates to 3 critical damage or 3d5 levels of fatigue, probably enough to knock him out. If it was only 1 Fatigue per critical the acolyte would still be standing (after a whopping 71 damage!). And of course with lethal damage he would have taken 10 Crits several times over!

BTW, I'm also thinking about using these rules for weapons suitable for non-lethal combat, such as batons, clubs, staves and Shock Mauls. Although the default mode is more effective and can easily knock someone out by itself, using batons etc. this way allow you to target non-critical areas in order to cause pain and break bones without risking splattering brains around.

Friend of the Dork said:

(sorry - haven't been around in a while: school.)

I personaly have no issue with the 1d5 damage. I think, as your example shows, if this was regular damage, that acolyte's insides would be deep-fried by las and/or splattered att over the ceiling. I think dropping him is better. Again, it's hard to know but I would rtun with it for a few sessions, and if it doesn't work, you can tweak it afterwards.

I don't see why you couldn't adapt this to melee weapons. Give it a try and let me know how it goes!

Macharias the Mendicant said:

Yes I have opted for this. So far It has not been tested, but I will let you know when a situation arises that the players want to use it or I have NPCs using it against PCs.

While I am for sure late for the party... I just found out that there is some "Shock Weapon" in the Forgeworld Section of the IH (p.133; the "Schock Blaster").

What ever you desing as a ranged "stunner" might need to be balanced against this one.

Gregorius21778 said:

Well after taking a look at it the Shock Blaster is a vastly superior weapon to any Laspistol.. normal damage, 4 Pen (as good as hellpistols), and Shock quality as an added benefit. And since Stun from Shock directly related to damage dealt, this is an awesome pistol. The only drawback is the short range, but at pistol ranges it's a limited drawback.