Ever since there was RPG's there where house rules. Here's another one.

There has been some discussion on this forum recently that has bordered on the problem that I'm trying to adress with these changes.

Very few RPG systems (that I know of) has a descent representation of the unarmored agile warrior vs. the heavily armoured warrior (yes, here I go again). Most often its just a race for the fighter types to get the plate armour as soon as possible because its the best and there are almost no disadvantages worth mentioning. Its the same with WFRPG 3rd. A fighter with 4 strength can carry the heaviest armour without encumbrance penalty, deal descent damage and have access to the best parry as well. Its not even unrealistic for him to have 4 Ag and therefore access to the best of Dodges on top of that. IMO that makes strength one of the best Attributes in this system, as we have seen most people choose career that are combat aligned and even those that don't probably tweak the their character so he will be at least a descent fighter.

Ok, enough ranting. the following is my solution to giving unarmoured/lightly armoured warriors a piece of the fun cake as well. In another post we discussed which skills make up a good fighter and I think we more or less could agree that several factors played in. Weapon training: the ability and knowledge to handle the weapon you use. Strength: For increased damage and higher control of the weapon, particularly if you miss. Agility: foodwork, foodwork, foodwork. Ask Muhammed 'Butterfly' Ali.

Here goes:

8 Attributes: Weapon Skill (WS), Strength (STR), Toughness (TO), Agility (AG), Intelligence (INT), Willpower (WP), Perception (PER), Fellowship (FEL).

(Perception: I include this because I do not believe that perception neccesarily relies on intelligence. Animals are very alert and good at tracking)

Humans start with 2 points in each Attribute. Pick one additional primary Attribute (in addition to those on the career sheet) to increase by 1 point for free. No attribute can be higher than 5 at character creation.

Start with 30 creation points. (Demi-humans start with 25)

Creation points are spent on Attributes, Action cards, Skills, Talents and Wealth as per RAW.

Combat
Melée Combat Skill (MCS) = Weapon Skill + Strength + Agility – Armour penalty (see armours below).

Mêlée Combat
Any Melée action card asking for a ‘skill check’ vs. Target Defence uses the following procedure to create a dice pool.
To find out which dice to roll in close combat, proceed as follows:

Melée Situational Modifier: Compare your MCS with enemy’s MCS:
- Higher than enemy’s: add 1 fortune dice to pool
- Same as Enemy’s: no penalty
- Lower than enemy’s: add 1 misfortune dice to pool
- Lower than half enemy’s: add 2 misfortune dice to pool

- Add 1 character dice per point of Weapon Skill (or the attribute asked for by the action card. E.g. Coordination (Ag)). Exchange any Characteristic dice with stance dice as appropriate.
- Add Expertise dice for training in any relevant skill (Weapon Group Skills, Coordination etc.) (as per RAW)
- Add Fortune dice from any relevant Specialization. (as per RAW)
- Add any dice from defensive actions. (as per RAW)
- Add 1 Challenge dice. (as per RAW)

Summary Melée: MCS vs. MCS + WS + Skill + Specialization + Defensive Actions + 1 Challenge

Whenever an Action Card asks for a Weapon Skill (st) vs. Target Defence test, read Weapon Skill vs. Target Defence
Target defence is still armour defence + Active Defences

If an Action Card asks for an unusual skill (e.g. Acrobatic Strike) Use your WS in MCS when comparing, but use the required skill (e.g. Agility – Coordination) to determine the amount of characteristic dice.

Ranged Combat
To find out which dice to roll in ranged combat, proceed as follows:

Ranged Situational Modifier: Compare WS with enemy’s Agility (modified by armour penalty, see below):
- More than twice enemy’s Ag: add 1 fortune dice
- Higher than enemy’s Ag: no bonus
- Same as Enemy’s Ag: no penalty
- Lower than enemy’s Ag: add 1 misfortune dice to pool
- Lower than half enemy’s Ag: add 2 misfortune dice to pool

- Add 1 character dice per point of Weapon Skill (or the attribute asked for by the action card. E.g. Observation (Per)). Exchange any Characteristic dice with stance dice as appropriate.
- Add Expertise dice for training in any relevant skill (Weapon Group Skills, Observation etc.) (as per RAW)
- Add Fortune dice from any relevant Specialization. (as per RAW)
- Add any dice from defensive actions. (as per RAW)
- Add 1 Challenge dice. (as per RAW)

Ranged Summary: WS vs. AG + WS + Skill + Specialization + Defensive Actions + 1 Challenge

Any card asking for a Ballistic Skill (Ag) vs. Target Defence test, read Weapon Skill vs. Target Defence. Use your Weapon Skill to compare against Target Agility (modified by armour) to determine the Ranged Situational Modifier. Use Weapon Skill to determine the amount of characteristic dice.

Armours
Heavier armours are only intended to be used for shorter periods at a time, for example when entering a battlefield where one can expect to face multiple opponents and be crammed in among friends and therefore unable to dodge most blows. Heavier armours are not meant for long treks and adventuring. Therefore any adventurer doing so should expect to become tired and sore of muscle shortly, unless gifted with unnatural strength (Mutant!).

As with any other heavy burden, amours will tire the wearer if carried for longer periods. The GM should give fatigue tokens on regular intervals if armours are worn for long periods without rest.

Sleeping in Medium or Heavy armour earns you one fatigue and stress point until you rest again without armour.

Armour qualities:

Medium : Requires strength 3+ otherwise the armour gains the Tiring Quality.

Heavy : Requires strength 4+ otherwise the armour gains the Tiring Quality. Whenever you use Active Defence: Dodge place an additional recharge token on the action card.

Hampering X : Hampering X subtracts X from your agility score to a minimum of 0 when comparing MCS’s. Armour Hampering X is cumulative with shield Hampering X effects.

Tiring : When wearing a Tiring armour you gain one fatigue token anytime you roll one or more Chaos Star results on your dice rolls in addition to any other effect.

Name Qualities Defence Soak Enc.
Cloth 0 1 1
Robe 1 0 2
Leather Armour Hampering 1 0 2 3
Brigandine Hampering 1, Medium 1 1 5
Mail Shirt Hampering 1, Medium 1 2 4
Chainmail Hampering 2, Heavy 0 3 6
Scale Hampering 2, Heavy 0 4 7
Ulthuan Scale Hampering 1, Medium 1 3 5
B. P. & Chain Hampering 3, Heavy 1 4 6
Full Plate Hampering 3, Heavy 1 5 8

Buckler 1 0 2
Spiked, Buckler 1 0 3
Kite Shield Hampering 1, Medium 1 1 4
Tower Shield Hampering 2, Heavy 2 1 5

New Weapon Qualities
Nimble : Pierce +1. A fast and agile warrior with a small precise weapon can more easily find an opening or weak spot in an opponents armour.

Cumbersome : If you miss on your attack roll when using a Cumbersome weapon add two recharge counters to your Dodge and Parry defensive cards.

New Weapons groups and rule changes for current ones
Light : if you have Agility 4+ this weapon gains the Nimble weapon quality.

Great Weapon & Pole arm : If you have less than 4 strength, this weapon gains the Cumbersome weapon quality.

Weapons in Light Group : Dagger/Dirk, Spiked Gauntlet (Critical 3 instead of 4)

Basic Skills Specializations Suggestions
Weapon Group: Light (WS) Parry, specific weapon
Weapon Group: Flail (WS)
Weapon Group: Ordinary (WS)
Weapon Group: Unarmed (WS)
Weapon Group: Great Weapon (WS)
Weapon Group: Pole Arm (WS)
Weapon Group: Cavalry (WS)
Weapon Group: Fencing (WS)
Weapon Group: Staff (WS)
Weapon Group: Spear (WS)
Weapon Group: Crossbow (WS) Specific Weapon
Weapon Group: Thrown (WS)
Weapon Group: Bow (WS)
Weapon Group: Sling (WS)
Athletics (Str)
Charm (Fel)
Coordination (Ag)
Discipline (WP)
First Aid (Int)
Folklore (Int)
Guile (Fel)
Intimidate (Str)
Intuition (Int)
Leadership (Fel)
Nature Lore (Int)
Observation (Per)
Piety (WP)
Resilience (To)
Ride (Ag)
Skullduggery (Ag)
Stealth (Ag)

Advanced Skills Specializations Suggestions
Animal Handling (Fel)
Channelling (WP)
Education (Int) Specific Language
Invocation (Fel)
Magical Sight (Per)
Medicine (Int)
Spellcraft (Int) Ranged Spell attack, Spell Touch Attack
Tradecraft (varies)
Weapon Group: Blackpowder (WS)

This link is a character sheet in XLS that may help explain these changes. The character wears Full Plate and shield and carries some weapons as example, but is otherwise unfinished.

I haven't had the opportunity to test it much so if anyone feels like it and finds time, I would very much appreciate any feedback. I intend to use these changes when I start a group in my own fantasy setting, in addition to some house rules specific for that setting.

Just to clarify but that seems like a lot of extra overhead to just slightly shift a fortune die around. You could achieve basically the same thing by just making combat an opposed roll and comparing weapon skills instead of just the default 1 challenge die. That would greatly shift the favor to a skilled fighter over a weaker opponent and make up the difference for the weaker opponent who just happens to be wearing armour.

As for the rest. It's a simple enough solution to just leave it to GM fiat. If the fighter insists or on wearing his full plate everywhere he goes it's perfectly reasonable to start give him fatigue as well as misfortune dice to all sorts of checks. Not to mention just good old fashioned narrative calls - like sorry but you can't come in here dressed like that. This is a respectable establishment.

While I can understand your need to change things there are a few things most of this seems to be trying to fix a need that isn't a fault of the game but poor sportsmanship if you will from a player. There is always going to be some rule or situation that can be abused and championed against for those wanting to exploit it. But mechanically trying to balance and neuter things is an ever escalating problem where no body wins.

If you want mechanical balance then everyone has to be the same because ANY variation eschews balance in one direction or another. If this works for you that's fine go with it. But I suspect now that you've put this nail in the balance coffin you'll be back in a month with another hammer and another nail.

WFRP 3's strengths are its flexibility and the ongoing concept of giving the GM the flexibility to say yes - then add more dice. But it's also about giving the GM the authority to actually be the fulcrum of the game. He is the balancing point between the players and the story. If a player is being unreasonable then use the story to keep them in check.

This goes back through previous versions of WFRP as well. It's never been a mechanically well balanced game. It's always been about using the story to balance characters. The Pit Fighter has always been better than the Scholar when it comes to a fight. It's up to the GM to make sure that both of those players have a balanced experience though. It shouldn't be left to the rules to do it for you.

Now keeping that in mind when it comes to combat. If I've got two fighters equally specked out but one in full plate and one in a loin cloth. I'll bet on the full plate every time. That's just the reality of combat - Armour is a good thing to be wearing. But have those same combatants in a running rooftop battle the situation changes. You are perfectly within your realm to assign penalties for running, jumping and climbing to the decked out fighter even if the rules for full plate specifically don't say that. The other rule - of say yes but assign dice gives you that authority. Any players that can't get passed that are going to be problems no matter what kind of rules you create.

you raise some good points.

Originally I was using an opposed roll but found that the armoured fighter would have too hard a time hitting the unarmoured fighter and also I dont want the armour to be the cause of more Chaos Stars.

when you look at it the changes are actually very few- two new attributes, a comparison roll and a new armour qualities [Hampering]. The weapon group skills are really just specializations become skills instead to make weapons a bit more detailed.

As for the fatigue, its actually more like advise or guide lines than any fast rule and as you say, the GM should be the final arbitrator. Sometimes it can be nice for players to read a rule so they have an idea of what they can expect. On they other way they can learn it the hard way or use common sense (I would imagine it can take some time for players used to traditional rules heavy systems to getting used to the common sense method). The only problem is that sometimes the GM's common sense is not the same as the player's. That is where a rule can be useful. And before you start: no I dont want a rule for everything. I prefer this system anytime over Pathfinder.

I'm not looking for supreme balance in this game, I simply don't have the patience or time to test everything against each other, but merely a way to represent that strength is not the only factor in combat. Its a big factor yes, but not the only one. Hence the seperation of Weapon Skill and Strength. I believe that an average strength fighter can be as good or better than a high strength fighter. Technique, strength and foodwork.

I actually think that FFG has been too balancing when you look at their scaling rules for armours. But sometimes it can be neccesary if you dont want to make an option redundant.

In the example you give the fullplate warrior would most likely still win out against the agile fighter, simply because he can absorb a lot of damage and eventually the agile fighter will tire and become slower. This is represented by the stance system. Th e armoured fighter can take his time iin conservative stance. he doesn't need to hit well, as long as he hits he deals damage. The agile fighter will probably need to use reckless stance in order to get three succes and the extra damage to get through the armour.

Who knows perhaps there will be some exciting new action cards and melee styles for agililty based characters with the upcoming Khorne expansion.

Quote:

WFRP 3's strengths are its flexibility and the ongoing concept of giving the GM the flexibility to say yes - then add more dice. But it's also about giving the GM the authority to actually be the fulcrum of the game. He is the balancing point between the players and the story. If a player is being unreasonable then use the story to keep them in check.

Quote

I totally agree with this statement. The house rules were not intented to create limitations, quite the contrary. I know what kind of players I have and I know that some of them want to be agile and handy with a weapon so that their participation in combat makes a difference. Now they can have high weapon skill and agility at rank 1, and not neccesarily high strength which would take a lot of points from other social attributes.

Perhaps it is uneccesary with the armour qualities and merely enough to add weapon skill as an attribute. I will have a closer look.

Thank you for your feedback.

-L

Maybe you could also introduce a fortune bonus for the unarmoured fighter for speed. I can imagine that unarmoured agile fighters can dish out more attacks rapidly then a fullplate armored fighter. It is a simple solution for the damage part too and doesn't force the agile fighter to fight full reckless.

Lucas Adorn said:

"Adding new attributes" isn't what I consider petty changes!

Why do you want to make Weapon skill into an attribute? It really as the essence of a skill. I mean, knowing how to use a weapon isn't part of your innate physical or mental qualities. It's something you learn. If you want everyone to be somehow good with weapons, just make Weapon skill a career skill for every career or even giving a white dice to everyone. Now, you mentioned that you didn't think that strenght was a dominant factor in weapon handling. I give you that. Wouldn't allow using Str OR Agility for Weapons skill simpler than making WS an ability?

Perception, now I would understand. I don't see how intelligence is supposed to make you more perceptive. Perception really is a physical attribute. But then, like I've said, adding an attribute isn't a petty change. But then, I don't really know how you could adjust it without changing the rules too much.

I also think that your combat system is way too complex (at least for my liking). It will slow down combat much IMO! It's also confusing since the added dices don't follow the same rules as the opposed checks so it's counter intuitive.

Well, that's just my humble 2 shillings!

What about a combination of Armor actually reducing Initiative, and introducing a rule like; If you initiative is at least 2 higher than your opponent, you gain a fortune die on your attacks since you are much faster than him. That way, agility based unarmored fighters might be vulnerable, but are sure hitters. In addition, you could introduce the rule that if you score a critical hit, no damage is soaked.

Without altering the rules, as GM, you could call for numerous tests for the armored warrior due to terrain, running etc. really let the player feel that despite his high strength, you character is stilled limitted in movement due to the armor. For instance, if the battle took place on a slope with scree, let the player with heavy armor make a agility check (1 or 2d) each round to stay on his feet. It's not intended to annoy the player using heavy armor, but to introduce some practical realistic limitations when wearing armor.

It could be too harsh, but what about giving heavy armor a line that goes :

1 bane : suffer 1 fatigue

or maybe

everytime you suffer fatigue, suffer an extra fatigue

Silverwave said:

I thought of that but dropped it.

-L

Silverwave said:

When I wrote the rules, I had in mind that I didn't want to complicate the rules more than necessary. I didn't want there to a bunch of extra tests or rolls etc.

The two added Attributes (WS and Per) does not really change the current mechanics. I'll pass over Perception since you agreed on the usefulness of that. WS: the reason I made this an Attribute rather than a skill is because I didn't want it based upon any physical attribute (strength or Agility) since I believe its a combination of several things that determine how well you fight in close combat (as mentioned strength, agility and you general trainging with any given weapon) Making WS an attributes gives the character no advantage with any weapon over the current system. You can still train specific weapons and in fact it forces a fighter to specialize in specific weapon styles rather than making every strong man a natural with any weapon as the RAW suggests. With WS as an attribute you can have a strong person (perhaps a farmer) who is not necessarily a well trained fighter. He will still do more damage than a weak person if he hits. (BTW all the 40K RPG's have WS as an Attribute, don't see why Warhmmer can't).

That said, I would probably the WS attribute if the Khorne expansion gives us a great deal more of agility based attacks. That would help in what I try to achieve.

Having both perception and WS as an attribute changes nothing in how the cards work, with the exception Weapon Skill (st) vs. Target Defence reading Weapon Skill vs. Target Defence. Basically its just a different type of opposed roll as some of the action cards call for.

An action based on Observation is still that. The only difference being that Observation is based on Perception instead of Intelligence.

Its possible that we can do away with the whole opposed roll and just have certain armour traits affect the characters in order to achieve the wanted effect (unarmoured vs. armoured), I have not thought that through yet. But adding those two Attributes really is a very slight change when you look at it. There's still equality between mental and physical attributes.

-L

As an alternative to all the all the 'new' Basic skills (weapon skill groups) it could be reduced to just

Weapon Skill: Melée Weapons - Ordinary, Great weapons, Cavalry, spear etc.

Weapon Skil: Ranged Weapons - crossbow, bow, sling, thrown etc.

and perhaps

Weapon Skill: Advanced Weapons - Black Powder weapons, Repeating crossbow, Warmachines

These last being technological advanced compared to ordinary weapons and may required specific knowledge and training apart from ordinary weapon training.

Cheers

-L