We'll be kicking off our next session with this battle, and I was preparing I noticed the beastman stats on p73 include all the standard beastman actions except Bestial Howl. I wonder why this one was left out?

Izka has a replacement attack which is very dangerous (a powerful attack instead of the Howl).

Those Beatmen are slighlty different from the ToA ones (as said in the description)

Well...i had all those monster action on cards, so when i've run thi encounter i've used (maybe just once) also bestial howl...anyway u should not worry about that, i dont think it matter most if u use it or not.

Instead u should be really well prepared for this encounter in general. I've run it last evening and, despite i've left only Izka, one hencmen gor, 3 henchmen ungor, all of them intoxicated by thunderwater beer to guard the stone...the result was: COMPLETE WIPE OUT of my party!! o.O! lol!!

Yep, when using a Wargor-type creature, you need to be carefull to not wipe out the player group. Those can one-shot most characters : base damage 13 wounds (2 hands Weapon), Tou 3 + Leather soaks 5 -> 8 Wounds a strike, 2 shots most human/elves. Can hit well easily using A/C/E (A+E) at 16/17 damage, "one shot"-ing non-tank character.

To prevent that and still keep the menace, i temporized its involvement. He stayed at the Stone, braying to the skies while thunder struck the stone, the Gors and Henchmen Ungors doing the fighting (they don't feel threatened on their home ground, with their numbers around their Stone). I used less that recommended in the book, which still left about 4 Gors + 16 Henchmens Ungors (4 packs of 4) for my 4 player group (Dward soldier-Tank, Troll Slayer, Elven Bounty Hunter and Sigmar noob Priest, 5 Exp each at that point).

Once they had almost finished the Gors + Ungors (1 gor left and 1 Henchman group left), Izka joined the combat ... the Soldier fell when the Archer killed Izka (the dying strike from the Wargor), the Troll Slayer was also in bad shape but still standing (he fell once and a good 1st Aid check from the Archer saved him).

The Powerfull melee opponents are the real menace, but group numbers also are very deadly. After running this combat, i'm certain that 4 Gors and 8 groups of Henchmen Ungors would have killed them without Izka. I did run that fight with care, making creature not coming all at once (spread around the Long+Long circle with the Stone in the middle), etc.

If your group is composed, for exemple, of a Merchant, a Scout-like and a Thief, they stand NO chances at all in a combat situation involving Beastmen in number (Beastmen are powerfull melee creatures for beginner characters)

Agreed Izka is a fearsome foe, particularly with pals to stop him being mobbed.

Players need to realize this and strategize about facing him, GM needs to drop hints about this as hard as necessary to the point the thud of them landing is audible two blocks away. Allies using Guarded Position, narrative cleverness for a fortune die, use cards that beat back, pin down the foe, have "a clever plan" to lure away etc.

My group of 5 PC's had one death facing that encounter (though admittedly the PC who died charged forward while others were trying to keep him at distance and the others were all 'you do what?').

Rob

Are there supposed to be 2 Gors per PC or 2 Gors in total?

i understood it as (2 Gors + 3 henchmen Ungors) per PC, which is too much (i lowered the Gors and added few Ungors). Maybe it's only 2 Gors total then henchmen depending on PCs. From the Escaping part it says twice x Gors and y henchmen Ungors per PC (p.31 A Brief Respite & once again a few lines under) so i got it that way for the initial setup too. I was probably mistaken to do so.

But to be fair, Izka + 2 Gors + (9-12) henchmen is enough to kill groups if you get them all in fast.

I have no idea how I'm going to run this fight, to be honest. My party consists of a bounty hunter, a priestess of Shallya and a grey wizard. They'll be slaughtered... There must be some sneaky way for them to get the stone. Fighting will only get them killed very quickly.

Ludlov Thadwin of Sevenpiecks said:

maybe you can use Foaldeath the bray-shaman? unless ofcourse your party has allready slaughtered him or made him an enemy. He can be a great asset.

I used the encounter as written and my party of 5 (a roadwarden, a troll-slayer, a scout, an apprentice wizard, an evnoy) barely made it out alive. the key is to place the beastmen in various ranges between medium and long. they advanced in groups towards my players that made a slow advance towards the herdstone (untill they realized they had to rush the place). they defeated Izka with ease but was about to get surronded by hordes of beastmen...when foaldeath called out, distracting the beastmen. cut to rallystep. than a short fight (3 rounds) with some remaining beastmen as they where cuting lose the stone, than a hasty retreat. over to pursuit.

It was a close call as the troll-slayer went unconscious by strain. luckily my party had the cart with them. And luckily they had a competent scout that lead them on hidden paths through the quagmire. only once did he lead them into deep waters filled with mosquitos (party tension rose, as the scout did hide his error and started to wade into the stinking water as nothing was wrong, ready to abandon them if they stayed behind), and had to ditch the cart. The pursuit was tense as more and more beastmen seemed to be gaining on them.

but yeah you have a tough challenge getting through this chapter, without help. Maybe the grey wizard can use some trickery?

good gaming

Ludlov Thadwin of Sevenpiecks said:

Lower the forces around the Stone (no Gors at all would help) and remember the size of the clearing, it's about Long Range + Long Range in diameter with forest type vegetation surrounding (i randomly spread the creatures around except Izka up at the center by the Stone), so they can try to sneak up to Long Range from center. They need to use what they have : range combat, pull and retreat kind of tactic. Izka will be a problem if he gets Close/Engaged. Try to play the Beastmen as un-warry : noone ever came in their territory that far, they are not that much vigilant and won't probably all join up in a fight at once, maybe thinking at 1st it's a brawl between 2 of them. That way, you could have a couple packs of henchmen spot and run for them, once they fall, Izka and the last henchmen pack see and join in the fight.

If you really think they cannot handle a Wargor (which is a possibility with your 3 players and that monster Soaking 9), replace it (his stats) with a Gor equiped with a 2 handed axe (Base Damage becomes 12 instead of 13, Soak becomes 7 instead of 9). It will stil hurt.

If they are too many Beastmen in the clearing, it will be hard to set up a diversion (from the Grey Wizard Basic magic) to have them all move away. You still need to get some Stealth rolls or other tricks for the party and have a character run up to the Stone and cut down the ropes for the slab. They will be seen at some point

Thanks for the replies, Mal and Cwell... I'll let you guys know how it turns out:)

That was our "general" plan but if u let them make stealth rolls u have to be preprared for failure. 2 of my player have failed 4 of them in a row, so the combat ensued. Only the rogue made it to the stone, grabbed it, but then in all the mayhem around izka they chosed to stay togheter instead of flee, so they was all slaughtered (scout, initiate of sigmar and boatman whit 5 St). For the stealth option remeber to change the description about Izka standing JUST IN FRONT of the stone...otherwise they may get discouraged about a stealth approach in the first place (and for a good reason imo!)

If i would make it again, i would suggest one of the two:

A. avoid the combat alltogheter, and sobstitute this part whit a roleplay/investigative scene where they find some drug/narcotic to add to the beer to get rid of the beastmen for a while (investigating keila or befriending Hildette).Otherwise foaldeath may know how to make a poison but he need some herbs in the marsh first. In the end this will be a bit repetitive whit poison rats and goblin later...

B. make a progress tracker like 6 space long. By the third space they grab the stone and by the 6 they have a chance to flee. Make clear that at this time fleeing is the only viable option (for exemple for the arrival of more madtheet, or maybe of another beastmen tribe)

If u still want players suffer for a good combat in the marsh have them ambushed by a chasing beastmen hunting party, but remember to skip out Izka.

what else? ah yeah...GOOD LUCK to your party lol!!

I don't know if it's my players rolling badly, but my group of four players (pit fighter, bright wizard, apothecary and rat catcher) pretty much got served by Izka alone, having killed one gor with ranged attacks and lured the other beastmen away with magic fire in the trees.

In the end I had to get cousin Klaus Holz rush in from his position at the wagon to engage Izka and save the rest from the party from being slaughtered. I hate having to use NPC:s in a way that the players feel like they're being saved by deus ex machina.

In my opinion To 6+3 soak is a bit harsch for rank 1 characters. Most attacks will inflict 1 wound, if they hit at all. Izka's got 18...

Another thing, my players seem to lose interest in the fights after a few rounds of combat, especially if things go badly. A soon as the pit fighter was unconscious he was fiddling around with his cell phone instead of focusing on the fight. Any ideas here?

Ludlov Thadwin of Sevenpiecks said:

Remember Grey wizards can use rank 1 disguise spells to look like a beastman. This would no doubt help. At some point you can have them just grab the stone and run, while the rest provide distractions.

As for Windup - remember that the pit-fighter can use a 2h (7+str damage before action cards), and bright wizards can overchannel and then dump their extra power into damage. Might help penetrate that pesky soak.

So what's Foaldeath doing during all this? Does he actually actively help the PCs during this battle, say with his spells, or what?

And have you all used 2 Gors per PC, or 2 Gors total? Running this on Friday night and this is all interesting to read.

How did it go on friday universalhead?

no Foaldeath there, he can't be seen "attacking" his kind. He wants Iska dead both to become the Leader and, maybe not openly, to protect the Holtz.

Once the PCs are fleeing with the stone (mine were heavily wounded with 1 uncounscious), i used 6 Henchmen chasing them and, with Foaldeath poping at round 5.

For the Herd Stone Clearing, i used 4 Gors + 4 Ungors (Henchmen groups, thus 16 ungors) using a 1+1 per PC, with a random spread on the map. They did not join up all at once, Iska staying at the Stone until only one Gor and henchmen group were left (wounded).

That was a close call, they survived because they have a powerfull group and a bit of luck (Dwarf soldier soaking 9, 4 Str; Troll Slayer 2H Axe with Str 5 Tou 5; Woody Bounty Hunter Agi 5 and Longbow, Sigmar Priest with a 2H Hammer and Chain Mail). Their good ability to fight made my mistake ok on that one (too many beastmen).

I think it is supposed to be 2 Gors (total), +2 Henchmen Ungors per PC (which would make 2 henchmen groups of 3, for 3 PCs). Even then, you have to be carefull with Iska if you don't want to slaugther your group. Beastmen are powerfull oponents. Maybe having a Lighning strike a Beasman or 2 as hidden help if things go bad, etc.

I ran this encounter last week (without knowing about this post) and here's what happened:

The party (3 players) was able to sneak up to the edge of the clearing with the cart and decided to try and assassinate Iska from range (they really are brash young fools). They did about 3 damage before the Wargor was on them. Using all their available fortune and talents, they managed to bring the Wargor down the same round Iska dropped their "tanky" initiate of Sigmar. I played the remaining Beastmen (interpreted from the book as 5 per player) as circling the clearing, expecting their leader to deal with the intruders. We ended the session with the Beastmen in shocked disarray, the players in serious danger with a man down and surrounded.

To be honest, I'm not sure what I'm going to do next session. I told them from the start that this was going to be a very dangerous world and that the threat of PC death was very real. At this point I could go easy on them and have the Gors start fighting among themselves or have Foaldeath show up (as they sort of made friends with him), but I may just have the Gors attack and see how the players react. They didn't get to the stone yet, so if they run now, without it, I'll have some tweaking to do with the story, but that's the risk of running a pre-canned scenario.

The advice I'd give is similar to others, make it very clear to the players that this is VERY serious threat and playing it hack and slash would probably be a very bad idea. If you think they're going to try to fight the whole group, be prepared to gimp the encounter or players will start dropping (which may be fine, making new characters is a WFRP tradition).

We finally played this session last night!

The fight took up almost the entire session, and I must admit I still feel some concern about the new system and the plethora of fiddly little details that must be remembered all the time. I have a very organised reference sheets for myself and for the battles, the players have little reference cards with their basic dice pool and damage on them - I've done everything to streamline things as much as possible, but I do find myself forgetting little rules, or turns bogging down in dice pool-counting. I can see the players rolling their eyes occasionally as they try to remember it all as well, and we're about 4 sessions into the campaign.

I also have some problems with the range/movement system as given; deciding when monsters should expend extra fatigue to rush into combat, and adjudicating a simple pursuit (I mean, since the monsters take fatigue as wounds, they could really catch up on any PC pretty quickly by sacrifising a few; whereas the PC can't push it too far before going unconscious, and yet a PC should really be able to outrun his pursuers in most cases if he gets a bit of a head start). Also there's no provision for the differeng speeds of different creatures and characters.

Anyway, that aside, it was a fun battle. The PCs (4 of them) dragged the cart almost to the clearing, then the bounty hunter crept up to the edge to scout. The group had a lot of discussion about what to do, and they were clearly daunted by the number of beastmen. There was a lot of discussion and indecision. I tried to speed things along by having a small beastmen group discover them, but after the small fight they were back to the indecision again! There was much talk of just waiting to see if the beastmen headed for Stromdorf, in which case they'd get the stone after everyone had left, or waiting until everyone was drunk and asleep.

Eventually, after a bit of prompting ("come on guys, this is warhammer after all"), one of them sneaked up closer to Izka and fired a few arrows at him then ran away into the swamp being pursued, after narrowly surviving a charge by Izka. Simultaneously the bright wizard cast a flameblast at another group and drew them off, and the other two PCs headed for the lightning stone.

Still no confirmation on anyone about the poor wording in the book for the number of beastmen, but I used 3 groups of 4 ungor each, with a single gor in each group. By the time they killed Izka they'd only killed one of these groups (and a fresh one was on it's way). Throughout the battle Foaldeath stayed near the stone, though he did cast one 'Grasp of the Oberslecht' spell to surreptiously slow down Izka and the beastmen pursuing the bounty hunter.
After some fighting - the bounty hunter did a surprising amount of damage to Izka using rapid fire attacks - Izka ws finished off and I rapidly brought things to a conclusion by saying the remaining beastmen turned on each other.

The PCs have buried the lightning stone at the Eigel farm ruins and aren't telling anyone about it - I guess Schulmann won't be introduced until the next chapter then - and after interrogating Cobblepot they've finally revealed the truth to Kessler who is off to arrest the Holtz clan.

About the extra mouvement, i limit it to 2 Fatigue / Wounds dedicated to mouvement (can have more than 3 total movement with action card triggering "you get an extra free manoeuvre" type). That way, no crossing a football fied in one round.

For the ratio of Wounds versus Fatigue between Monsters & Players, i'd say that monsters are less willing to auto-injure themselves (like once per Expertise point ? based on Green v Red stance bar ? or some fanatism critera to allow self mutilation, etc.).

Like so many other times with this new system, I think of good ways to GM it after the session !