So some spells specify coronas, glowing eyes and other blatant effects, but how obvious is spellcasting?

I understand that channeling Aqshi makes your skin bronze, your hair turn to fire, and glyphs appear on your arms. But what about trying to pull off a sneaky Ulgu (grey order illusion) spell?

Thoughts or rules quotes?

That's a very good question.

Yeah some schools of magic, while not being as blatantly powerful as the Bright Order, still win out by being a lot less obvious.

A clever wizard of any order, however, could use their magic in ways which could seem coincidental.

I mean, other than the spells which literally state things like "glowing eyes" or "corona of powah".

Surely someone will pull out a useful quote from one of the books. Until then, I'd probably let the player attempt to "perform a stunt" to get the spell to be cast subtly? I dunno...

Oh one other idea: i can definitely see spell casting done in the Conservative stance having a better chance of... uh... having the caster go unnoticed as the source of the spell? Er I'm gonna regret typing that last one, I'm sure.

That is a good quesiton.

First I would go with spell text and fluff. If it's versus defence because they effectively conjured a bolt and threw it, obvious. If it's just "spellcraft check" unopposed with no "glowing eyes" or "spirits circle the target and fly back to you" stuff, then maybe not obvious.

At this point as GM set a standard approach. Sauce for goose and gander. If there's no penalty on PC's going unnoticed, ditto for foes. If you're going to say spotting spellcasting when there are no obvious factors from card text/mechanics is an Easy Ob check (automatic magical sight check) it's that for all etc. If a PC can make it less obvious by taking on misfortune dice okay, NPC can too.

I kind of like stance influencing it. It's an Easy check default, automatic if caster Reckless, each step into Conservative moves it up one (1 deep Average, 2 deep Hard etc.). One way of trying not to be noticed if spell itself doesn't give it away is to go very conservative, being cautious. subtle, accepting great risk of delays etc.

I like the idea that an Ulgu caster's eyes might just cloud over as he casts, or that the words he whispers might issue forth from his mouth as little tendrils of mist or smoke which quickly dissipate. Nothing too obvious, but there should be a little Grey flavour somewhere for the careful observer.

That's about as subtle as I think magic should get, though.

trystero said:

Or perhaps the shadows in the folds of his cloth grow just a bit darker and more intense or they start acting strange as if a life of their own, like in Bram Stoker's Dracula movie. Perhaps streetlamps and torches dim slightly or the vision of nearby people flimmers an instant as if a smoky veil had been drawn across their eyes. A cloud may at the instant of casting draw across the moon and darken the land only to pass shortly after.

Subtle effect from other wizards: the air may suddenly feel dryer, the wood in the houses around start creaking as the heat expands it. The air flimmers as if looking through a haze of heat. torches around you may brighten for a few seconds. the sun may break through a layer of clouds for just an instant, brightening the day. the undergrowth around you may twist and caress your feet, plants turn to face you slowly. water may suddenly taste better, richer. birds or animals of the forest may give consent with their howls, rustlings of feathers or cawcaws. a slight odour of rotten meat may rise from the ground. a dead rat may twitch its legs once or twice. water may turn foul and asume the smell of sewage. mold suddenly grows on food or wood. for an instant the wizard gains a visage of old age. his beard turns slightly whiter or grows a bit longer. your skin takes on a sheen of yellow that passes as soon as someone looks closer. your hair on the back of your neck rise. the air is staticly charged.

just a few suggestions, all which can be subtle if used moderately or toned down appropriately or mentioned in passing.

I'd say Magik is super subtle considering the fact that the elves do not have an arcane spellcater represented in the game. Unless Winds of Magic contains this as an option which I don't believe it does. They only Taught the Humans to control the winds, no big deal. However I guess that goes to show that FFG needs to develop an Ulthuan Expansion which would be quiet a delight, (that and one for the Moot and Athel Lorne). The timeline of product releases allows it to be designed as and advanced adventure/campaign setting, so the issues of High Magic can be worked, in a balanced fashion, into the system.

That being said.....

valvorik said:

I like the way you put this Valvorik, especially the design for challenge rating using stance to increase of decrease the chance of success/failure. Having the players be able to be subtle in their use of magik is paramount in my opinion, as most common folk are greatly disturbed by, if not down right hostile toward, magik users. I think it gives the wizard, especially Grey Wizards (which my current arcane spellcaster is on the path to become), an almost Jedi like quality. You guys have all posted great stuff, good ques and narrative bits to add to the all important flavor to the story.

88's

Lester Crow and His Strolling Bones

The Strolling Bones said:

Urm ... I'm ... not really sure why you think these two are related. Remember that human magic is pretty flashy (giant gouts of fire, glowing pillars of light, spirits rising, shapeshifting etc). Also many (most) of the schools have secondary effects for wind channeling - such as the aforementioned hair turning to fire, gaining a skeletal appearance etc. Ulgu is one of the notable exceptions.

The Strolling Bones said:

Give it time. The 'dwarf' expansion is slated for next year. I imagine the other races will get their due in time.

The Strolling Bones said:

No offense, its explicitly stated that the best human wizard (say rank 5) is no match for a poor elven wizard. Not sure if I agree that this can be done, but ... FFG may surprise us.

The Strolling Bones said:

Ulgu relies on trickery and illusion and focuses on stealth. I think loud chanting and grandiose hand gestures may sort of defeat the purpose so I agree with you in that regard.

Remember though that empire wizards are authorized to be the only official magic users, and this is backed up by the Emperor and consequently his servants in the church (occasional crazy witch hunter aside). Peasants are indeed greatly disturbed by, and hostile towards magic users - but not necessarily wizards. Wizards are scary sure, but their job is to kill the horrible witches, demon summoners, cultists and rogue wizards that may not follow the emperors path. In that regard they are necessary, and thus tolerated if not accepted, and feared if not loved. A wizard's path isn't easy, and being a caster is a conscious choice.

Yes, being subtle might be convenient, but that is very different from being right, rules correct, or even good for the story.

I do however want to thank everyone that threw their 2 cents in. Some of the ideas and descriptions are indeed stellar as Bones said.

The Warhammer setting information expressly states that the farther you get from Altdorf, and the center of the Empire, the more that a Wizard is looked upon with fear and distaste/distrust. All I'm saying is that if a wizard were to be overtly flashy, especially in the north or east, he runs the risk of being deemed a chaos worshiper and hounded by a throng of angry villagers or perhaps an over zealous Witch Hunter. At the very least getting bad deals on shelter and sustenance.

Now this is all situational based of course and each Narrator is going to run it in a different fashion. But in Warhammer world, especially in the backwaters of the Empire and deep within Dwarven Holds, those who wield majick openly are downright mistrusted and sometimes burned alive or cast out of the community.

As for the Elven Majick issue, the only problem I have is the seeming lack of variety in the character creation process if a player desires not to be a human. Personally I, as a Narrator, love humans because its easier for my players to get into character when playing one. However most people who I've met and Narrated for play fantasy RPG's in order to escape the humdrum of everyday life, they don't want to be a human student. I would totally play the hell out of a character like that, however I'm quite a bit different than most Gamers that I've met. I just feel that the players are slightly limited as to the scope of character they can play when they choose a race other than human, and this is mostly because half of my gaming group brought that issue up during character creation.

Oh and Shinma, I'm a pretty light-hearted person so it's going to take alot to offend me. I enjoy criticism, as long as it is constructive and well thought out, because it can lead to looking at things in new ways; effectively opening up new horizons.