I'm not certain if this has been addressed before, but is it possible for a character with throwing weapons to make more than 1 attack per round? In our own group, we assume that someone with Swift Attack/Lightning attacks could make as many thrown weapon attacks as melee attacks, assuming they already have the weapons in-hand (of course, the Rapid Reload fixes that). We also assume, that Two-Weapon (Melee)/Ambidexterity work together as listed for thrown weapons (excepting grenades that work differently from thrown knives, for instance).

Any ideas on this?

(and, as an afterthought: what about someone with Rapid Reload and a bow? They could then reload as a . I know you could simply load for free, aim as a half ation and shoot - then repeat next round - but any chance of firing twice, even if it means treating it like some sort of auto-fire or something in order to stick with the 1 attack action/round maximum?)

Thanks guys and gals.

Macharias the Mendicant said:

Two-Weapon Fighting (Ballistic) would allow for you to throw one weapon with each hand. However, without Quick Draw , I would say you are not getting to throw anything more than that. Even with Quick Draw , I think anything more then that would really be a stretch.

As to using Rapid Reload with a bow? Mechanically, no, you could not do two shots with it. Here's why

1. It's rate of fire is S/-/- meaning it simply cannot fire semi- or full-auto.
2. You cannot perform two attack half-actions in a round. Firing a single shot weapon is a half-action. You then interrupt to reload (free) and fire again? Nope, not per the rules.

Would it be overpowering to allow in the case of a bow? No, not really. But if you did, then you would realistically have to allow other single-shot weapons; like a stub revolver, to be used the same way, or allow people to swing their melee weapon twice without the talent to do so.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Brother Proteus - the point you make is a good one and in fact I would NOT allow someone without a sepcific Talent to fire their stub revolver more than once - not unless it were extenuating circumtances and they were willing to take on some pretty hefty penatlies that would make such a manoeuver questionable at best - but I might allow someone to come up with a Talent to enable that type of action. Assuming they could rationalise how that would work, of course, and spent the XP and it made sense for their character. I guess what I was asking then is whether or not we feel that Quick Draw and Swift/Lightning Attack - particularly in the case of throw weapons, which truly speaking have no RoF - were the right Talents to enable these types of actions. After all, someone with an autopistol could hit up to 6 times on full-auto and do up to 1d10+2 x 6 dmg. Even with two-weapon wielder, ambidexterity and Lighting attack, a combatant armed with throwing knives would at best do 1d5+SB x4 dmg and would have had to buy multiple Talents in order to be able to so. It seemed reasonable to cut the knife thrower some slack. )

Now regarding the bow(s) and RoF: Yeah, as the rules are written, you are correct that you cannot fire multiple shots with the bow in one round - it has a RoF of S/-/-, and you can only take a single attack action in a round. That much is unequivocal, as the rules are written. I was simply hypothesising and asking that if someone _were_ inclined to allow an archer with Quick Draw to make two shots in one round, would one be more likley to allow 2 separate shots or treat it as a semi-auto burst of 2 for the sake of simplicity and to represent the fact that a character firing arrows that fast would havea slightly better chance of scoring a hit (+10%) but would have to roll pretty well (represented by the fact that he would have to score 2 degrees of success) in order to have both shots land.

I recognise that this is a completely hyporthetical scenario but I'm simply trying to open up the possibility that certain weapons may benefit from certain types of training or Talents. After all, the beauty of guns is "point and shoot": they are easy to use and RoF is built-in to the technology and available at the flick of a switch. A more primitive weapon relies on the user to supplement the technology being used to a greater degree. A thrown weapon relies on the speed of the wielder almost exclusively.

In the end, my question primarily concerns the case of thrown weapons (other than grenades)

Macharias the Mendicant said:

I understand where you are coming from. Honestly, in the case of the knife-thrower in your example, I would allow for it. You're not technically interrupting the attack sequence so much with the quick draw. As a matter of fact, professional knife throwers (yes there are quite a few) are capable of drawing and accurately throwing several knives in the span of time that defines a combat round. And I do know skilled archers who would realistically also be able to do so. But from a mechanical standpoint, the bow gets screwed.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Thanks for the feedback!

And yeah - the bow always gets screwed! lol!

Two points to keep in mind about the balance issue:

- Assassins and Tech-Priests can get thrown weapon training for chain and power weapons using only the DH core rulebook. So a player might make use of your changes, take the training, then ask for you to make an item so they can use the training. Note that the RT sword and Power Sword are the same weight, while the DH power sword is only .5 kg heavier (but DH has lighter power blades), making a power throwing knife look viable.

- FFG might release official weapons to cover the previous point, making it a bit harder to refuse the players request. Or they might have already done so, as I haven't got a copy of Into the Storm yet.

Personally I don't have any problem with primitive weapons being seriously inferior to high tech weapons. In fact, I'd have problems if this wasn't the case. But it's your game, so my opinion doesn't matter.

Well, there are power and chain throwing weapons in "Into the Storm" for Rogue Trader, if you wanted some official stats.

Certainly on the whole, "modern" ranged weapons are going to beat "primitive" weapons. But it's also important to realise that damage is often not necessarily where the modern weapon will prove superior - except in the case of Melta/Plasms weapons. (Also, DH/RT damage scales work on a d10 base, so there is not a whole lost of variance in damage - at least in the lower end of the scale.)

Consider other factors like range which, in almost all cases, is much better with modern weapons. Range is a big one: thrown weapons, no matter how powerful, are almost always going to have much shorter effective ranges and except for bows and crossbows, primitve basic weapons will suffer similar restrictions (compare a bow's range to a lasgun's for instance.) Also, penetration power is another. The Mono- upgrade may help, but even an archer with mono-arrows (who somehow - magically - can attack more than once) won't have the damage potential of someone wielding an autogun with manstopper rounds, or somebody with a bolt gun.

To me the issue of balance comes in the form of the Talents required in order to get the most out of a weapon. Basic Weapon Training (SP) allows someone with an autogun to score multiple hits no problem. RoF IS in fact one of the benefits of something like an autogun (or even a lasgun) which even the most basic training in a weapon allows the user to access to deadly effect. On the other hand, Thrown Weapon (Primitive, Shock, Power, Chain, etc.) gives someone the ability to throw these weapons without penalty. One at a time. Once per round. But if someone is willing to purchase both Quick Draw and Swift Attack/LIghtning Attack, I'm okay with reflecting that training in-game in the form of a faster throwing rate. Besides, consdier that even the fastest Thrown RoF for thrown weapons would have two-weapon + ambidexterity + quick draw + Swift attack + lightning attack = 4 thrown attacks, all at -10%. And that cost 5 Talents plus the weapon proficiency Talent. Even with something like a Javelin from the IH, it's stil has a range of 18m.

Now compare that with a full-auto spread from an autogun: +20% and every degree of success scores an additional hit, up to a maximum of 10 hits! Out to a range of 90m.

(In the case of archery, as Brother Proteus and I agree, the rules as written do not permit any multiple attacks and that is clear. Though I wouldn't exclude the possibility of someone coming up with a Talent to "tweak" some of that in their favour.)

So, I dont't think it's unbalancing to allow a player willing to buy all of the right Talents to use his weapons to "deadlier" effect. I'm not sure about other goups, but sometimes for us weapon choice is heavily influenced by the aesthetics of the character personal taste or beliefs and while I would not want to go ahead and make arrows and throwing knives the equal of modern weapons, (any more than I would want to make a stub revolver the equivalent of a plasma pistol) I think it's important to work with players/GMs in order to find a way to make certain options more viable and interesting to play, perhaps in a way that is influenced by equal parts realism dramatic license.

And if someone wanted to throw their power blades - good on 'em. But they can also expect to have enemies run away with them when wounded!

Is three of four thrown powerblades per round unbalanced compared to other ranged options? Suprisingly (or so it seems given the other responses in this thread) I'll say yes. Unless we're comparing with melta or heavy weapons they'll do more damage due to adding SB, be harder (or impossible, you can't get 4 reactions) to doge due to needing a separate reaction for each attack (unlike autofire which only takes one good reaction) and allow for more versatility than the ranged talents.

A character who is specialised in ranged combat might hold his own against such a knife thrower, in ranged combat. The knife thrower on the other hand gets twice the value for his XP once it's time for melee.

So melee talents for ranged combat would be a no for me. If you want to throw sevreal knives you get T.W.W Ballistic and two attacks each round. If you want a higher RoF you get something fancier. Like an automatic weapon or two. Allowing melee talents to work in ranged combat is to rich for my taste but YMMV.

The thought of someone throwing a barrage of power weapons just cracks me up. (Maybe I've got a different gaming experience than many but I can't imagine any of my players even thinking about something like that.) Anyhow, I'm hoping to find some way of accomodating my players' (and my own) wishes in a way that is intertesting and fair, so maybe I can try a different approach.

I think I read somewhere someone proposing treating light thrown weapons (like throwing stars or throwing knives) like a semi-auto bust of 2 or 3. That might be an interesting compromise for those afraid of game balance. You enforce a one thrown weapon attack/round rule but then you make the following Talents available to those interested in it:

Talent - Knife Thrower: Prereq: Quick Draw and/or Swift Attack (?) You have practiced extensively at throwing knives and light blades and are able to throw with great speed. When armed with light blades or throwing weapons (to be defined: either a: weighting 1kg or less, or b: doing 1d5s base for damage?) you can throw two knifves as if you were making a semi-auto burst. Treat it as a single attack with a +10% to BS test with an additional hit scored for every 2 degrees of success (max 2 hits).

and

Talent - Expert Knife Thrower: Prereq: Knife Thrower and/or Lightning Attack (?) . Your ability with throwing knives is almost beyond compare. You are able to throw at blinding speeds. When armed with light blades or throwing weapons (to be defined: either a: weighting 1kg or less, or b: doing 1d5s base for damage?) you can throw three knifves as if you were making a semi-auto burst. Treat it as a single attack with a +10% to BS test with an additional hit scored for every 2 degrees of success (max 3 hits).

This addresses the (questionable) potential for abuse, I think.This feels to me like a pretty good compromise.

Opinions? (Hmm... at this point, maybe I should just move it to the House Rules threads...)

On Dark Reign website I put up a small article on expanded throwing weapon rules which includes some power and chain example (I'd be interested to see what's in 'Into the Storm') and which rules for thrown weapons that can be 'semi-auto fired'.

@Macharias

The Mono- upgrade may help, but even an archer with mono-arrows (who somehow - magically - can attack more than once) won't have the damage potential of someone wielding an autogun with manstopper rounds, or somebody with a bolt gun.

Go and check out the potential of a Moritat Assassin with a Composite Bow and Mono Arrows some day... an Accurate Tearing Nonprimitive ranged basic weapon.

Cifer said:

Not to mention, quiet. Pen 2, with a potential to roll 4d10 damage, keeping the best 3 rolls. Not too mention, greatly improving ones chance to Righteous Fury . Of course, you need to at least half-action aim to have the extra dice be able to come up; and a house rule for Mono , as it says "Primitive close-combat weapon " in the errata. I think mono-edged arrowheads are fine, personally.

Of course, the autogun still needs a full-action typically to fire a full-auto spray.

While I'd not given the bow much thought before, I still think I'd rather use the Catechist ( IHB page 187) in many situations.

-=Brother Praetus=-

While I'd not given the bow much thought before, I still think I'd rather use the Catechist (IHB page 187) in many situations.

So would I -as long as someone else pays for the stakes.

Cifer said:

Why? 50 thrones per stake, or ~40 odd thrones per mono arrow? Plus the stakes for the Catechist have 1 higher pen and count as holy. Though I can see the arrows being more easily recoverable.

EDIT: Forgot tearing on the stakes against targets with a Psy Rating.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Face Eater said:

Nice. Thanks for the reminder! I'll have to check it out more in depth! (I'm akso curious to see what "Into the Sotrm" has on offer in that department)

@cifer: Composite Bow with Mono-Arrows and Moritat (tearing): yup. killer combo. And you forgot to add that you can have a Red Dot laser sight with that also to make it even more likely to score those extra "hits!" lol!