The talent "Assassins Strike" says: "Whenever you engage an opponent and make a melee attack, you may make an acrobatics test to move at your Half move rate as a free action. your opponent may not take the customary free attack."

Does this mean that as a free action you can make an acrobatics test and move or does it mean that the test is a half action and moving is free. The reason i say this is that as a Moritat Reaper (inquisitors handbook) you can use the talent "the reaping" and these two talents MAY be able to be used in conjunction with one another.

My worry is that someone (my party) will attempt to "power game" with this ability. So as a reaper you use the talent "the reaping" and attack everyone until you are parried and then make a free acrobatics test and move away at your half move rate away from danger, or move in the middle of the reaping and be in close combat with more enemies and continue the reaping. any official changes to this? or any suggestions on how to handle this?

My thoughts is that you cant combine these talents.

The talent "The Reaping" says: "by taking a full action in combat while using a sword or similarly edged weapon, you can make a single attack against every single target in close combat with you. You declare which target you attack first and then move in a clockwise or counter clockwise direction (your choice) making an attack against each target in turn. Test weapon skill and roll damage separately. These attacks can be parried and dodged as normal, but if an attack is successfully parried, the reaping blow is stopped and you make no further attacks."

Considering that you get The Reaping at rank 6, which is where other people lug around heavy weapons or discipline psy powers, I'm not sure whether it actually needs to be toned down. I'd suggest letting the assassin use it for a while. If you then determine it's too strong, you can impose the limitation that the Reaping effect can only be used against the enemies the moritat was in contact with when he invoked the talent. He can dance around them and he can get to safety after hacking away at them (as safe as 4 to 6 metres are anyway...), but he can't continue to strike against enemies that weren't in melee range when he started reaping.

You don't need assassin strike to make a half action move in melee without free attacks. That's a regular acrobatic disenagage available to everyone with acrobatics. In order for the talent to do anything at all you need to let the move be a free action.

I wouldn't allow moving and the reaping at the same time for more targets. Resolve one action before you begin the next one.

Like Cifer said, I would allow this, if only for the rule of cool. Then decide after using it if it's too powerful. Consider: a half move is not very far, even with a very high agility. Doing this is going to require the targets to be fairly tightly packed, so even if it's a powerful tactic, it has a somewhat limited scope.

Maverikk said:

Hmm, I'm certainly not an expert, but to me the talent description indicates that you cannot make a full round action at the same time as using it. It says "Whenever you engage an opponent and make a melee attack...", to me that means that you have to engage (i.e. move from non-melee into melee) and make an attack for the talent conditions to trigger. This means you can only make half action attacks (so no multi-attacks or Reaping). It would work with Charge though (but that also precludes the use of another full round action). I guess you can make it work if you have some other talent/power that lets you engage an enemy as a free action.

But sure, if you think it's cool letting the assassin do it, go ahead .

well you can charge and make multiple attacks as a death cult assassin and then walk away again... with hard target, berserk charge and a half move of 5+ it is still a very mighty move getting in and out of melee (&PB) but still making multiple attacks at +20

but I too think if you trigger the reaping (full action IIRC) you do not initially engage and therefore don't get to walk away for free

Sirion said:

Charge is it's own action, unless I'm missing something charge is that you move between 4m and your charge range and make a single attack with +10. The reaping is similarly it's own full action. So you cant swift attack dual wield the reaping or charge swift attack dual wield the reaping or other such combinations.

Graspar said:

Graspar,

Sirion is; in part, referencing the Death Cult Assassins' ascended trait Preternatural Speed ( Ascension page 55). The trait allows them to use Swift Attack or Lightning Attack as a half-action instead of a full-action. It also allows them to use those talents in conjunction with a charge action.

As to combining The Reaping with Assassin's Strike , I don't see it as being particularly over powered; but then, I also wouldn't typically allow Assassin's Strike to be used to move and engage a second group of baddies on the same Reaping action; after all, I think it would throw off the rhythm. I would definitely allow the Assassin to use the talent to extract themself from an engagement that didn't go as planned following a flub in the attacks; as I describe below.

Example : The Moritat Assassin , Assassin X, is currently engaging six cultists in melee.

• Assassin X is armed with a single sword and has Assassin's Strike, Counter-Attack, Lightning Attack, the Reaping, Step Aside, Swift Attack, and Wall of Steel .
• The cultists are each armed with single sword and have the talent Swift Attack .

Assassin X has the initiative and decides to perform a Reaping attack (full-action). He successfully strikes and fells Cultists 1 and 2, but his Reaping attack is parried by Cultist 3; thus ending the Reaping . Assassin X understands that he is soon to be facing the wrath of the four remaining cultists and decides at this time to activate his Assassin's Strike talent to withdraw from immediate danger. He succeeds on his Acrobatics check and moves 4 meters away from the cultists as a free action.

Cultists turn. They're out for BLOOD! They charge Assassin X, and each one manages to roll well enough to hit as they come in on our seemingly overwhelmed acolyte. However, Assassin X is far from helpless yet.

Assassin X uses his normal reaction to parry Cultist 3 successfully, and follows up with a successful counter which disembowels Cultist 3 with a vicious strike to the body.

Against Cultist 4 we see Assassin X once more parries; this time with the reaction granted by Wall of Steel . Again there is a successful use of counter-attack , deftly alleviating Cultist 4 of his head.

Cultist 5's attack is easily dodged by Assassin X, thanks to his final reaction granted by the Step Aside talent.

Cultist 6's attack is left to strike our erstwhile Cuisinart, inflicting a minimal amount of damage.

/Example

Power plays, power plays, power plays. There's nothing quite like them. And while it may bother some GMs to have to deal with a character like Assassin X, it is within the purview of the game rules. It is also something that requires a lot of work on the part of the player to reach, and is made all the more sweet because of the effort. It's a goal, something to look forward to in the long run. But, then again, such a character may not be suitable for all campaign styles. ShruG

-=Brother Praetus=-

Brother Praetus said:

What he said

Like I said, unless I'm missing something. Clearly I was.

I'm also thinking it's not OP to let assassin strike and the reaping work together. As previously stated just the half action disengage does not require assassin strike, just acrobatics and if your fancy new talent doesn't add to your combat ability what good is it. And as always you should resolve one action before applying the effects of the next one unless the rules state otherwise.

So... yes but it ends your reaping attack (if it hadn't ended already)?

Cifer said:

Cifer is correct, (as are many people in this thread) Reaping isnt really OP with acrobatics.

I used to think reaping was powerful, but its not really. It doesnt kill anyone in 1 round, where as 3 attacking 1 person usually does. If they dance away from your thugs, then your thugs draw their auto pistols in their off hands and hose the assassin down. If they are really nasty, they were using autoguns with bayonets in the first place. in which case they shrug, and full auto you point blank.

Heaven forbid they have bayonets on an auto-shotties ...

Reaping is poweful, but its not really broken, The main reason being that this assassin doesnt really want to be anywhere near multiple opponents (no character really).

to build on Brother Praetus example of 6 cultists. These guys would be incredibly dangerous if they had powerful (and CHEAP, COMMON!) automatic weapons with bayonets. OR autopistols in their off hands (also cheap and common). Now your assassin is dodging a whole world of hurt, that while might not do much against a daemon, is devastating to your relavtively light armored assassin.

what really makes the assassin dangerous is not the reaping. Its the Tearing ability that is granted to all their weapons. Since we know that all moriatat reapers come equipped with great lathe swords, tearing is a real issue.

2d10+str+(2 or 3?) tearing, ... 7.15 on tearing for 2 dice weapons yields 14+4str? +2 weapon bonus? = 18/hit?

all your level1 mooks still survive 1 hit of that... but if the reaper decides to eat your 1 main dude, its 18/hit x 3 ... AND a more or less massive chance for the Emps Fury each time.

I wouldnt worry about reaping

what really makes the assassin dangerous is not the reaping. Its the Tearing ability that is granted to all their weapons. Since we know that all moriatat reapers come equipped with great lathe swords, tearing is a real issue.

2d10+str+(2 or 3?) tearing, ... 7.15 on tearing for 2 dice weapons yields 14+4str? +2 weapon bonus? = 18/hit?

all your level1 mooks still survive 1 hit of that... but if the reaper decides to eat your 1 main dude, its 18/hit x 3 ... AND a more or less massive chance for the Emps Fury each time.

It's a little worse, yet a little better than that - Tearing only adds one die no matter how many dice the weapon has, giving an average of 13,475 for two->three dice. On the other hand side, the assassin may have stocked up on Crushing Blow, Precise Strike and Crippling Strike, inflicting an additional 1d5-1+2 damage to the head if he goes critical. Looking up the Rending Critical chart, it seems like everything from Crit5 onwards takes the enemy out of the combat - which is pretty doable against a 10 wound 3TB mook (13,475+2+2+2 = 19,475).

Guys, I have a similar question. The Assassin in my party constantly uses assassin's strike in conjunction with lightening strike to dance between foes and kill them all.

1. Assassin starts within move or charge distance.

2. A. moves or charges one enemy, hits him with an attack. This triggers assassin's strike, he moves away from the old target and engages a new one within AB meters.

3. The Assassin contines his full attack? Until he runs out of attacks (two-weapon wielder+lightening strike).

This is my impression, I let the player handle it but it seems he has been fudging a bit here.

But to change the situation: Is there any way a non-ascended PC can get a full-attack action on enemies not adjascent to him?

Also, if the assassin starts adjascent to an enemy, can he start a full (swift or lightening) attack, use assassin's strike, and continue his attacks on another target?

Third: Can one use AS more than once per round?

But to change the situation: Is there any way a non-ascended PC can get a full-attack action on enemies not adjascent to him?

Apart from using ranged weapons or being a navigator from RT with "tides of space and time", no. You get one full action and that's all you get.

Also, if the assassin starts adjascent to an enemy, can he start a full (swift or lightening) attack, use assassin's strike, and continue his attacks on another target?

There's nothing expressly forbidding it in the rules, but the "resolve one action before moving on to the next" rule seems self evident and is explicitly used in places where you normally could start an action and then abort mid way through such as extended actions

Third: Can one use AS more than once per round?

Again, not expressly forbidden by the rules but it seems self evident that you can't.

Friend of the Dork said:

First: Unless you're assassin is an ascended Death Cult Assassin they can not charge (full action) and use Swift or Lightning Attack (also full actions) once thay have closed. The charge action combines movement with a single melee attack against the target. But, yes, the assassin could then use Assassin's Strike to make an Acrobatics check to move away from their opponent (a free action). For clarifications on the Charge action, check page 12 of the v.3.0 Errata, it's the last bit covered in Appendix I: Combat Talents .

Second: As far as I've seen within Dark Heresy , there is nothing a pre-ascended character can do to get a full sequence of melee attacks against an opponent who they do not begin their turn adjacent to.

Third: I've not been able to find anything specific on this. However, as you typically cannot repeat the same type half-actions (i.e. Standard Attacks or Focus Power checks) in a round, most people conclude that you cannot repeat the same free action as well. This both seems logical and to be keeping within the intended rules. You as a GM have the final say in exactly how many free actions a PC may make in a round.

Hope that helps you out... And Graspar has beaten me to the punch. But I refuse to let my words, so eloquently chosen, be for naught.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Thanks guys.

So conclusion is:

1. You cannot make a full attack unless you're next to an opponent, AS or not.

2. You cannot normally interrupt a full attack, take free action etc. in between, and continue attacks as if nothing happened, and if you can you probably cannot do it more than once (and even then it's up to the GM).

3. You can take a full attack against adjascent foes, then trigger AS to get away, thus gaining a move action essentially for free.

Hmm after reading the combat chapter against I cannot find anything saying you can't take a free action in between a full attack. Actually, it says you can banter taunt etc. as a free action at the same time you are doing another action.

But again it's probably a GM call as there is no official rule about it.

Friend of the Dork said:

This one point is still highly debatable, but it seems to be the way most people lean with it. As I believe was stated previously, try it out with allowing them to use it prior to their attacks, see if it seems to be too much or not. But I would definitely not let them attack/move/attack using Assassin's Strike , nor use the talent more than once in any given round.

Now, if you will all excuse me. It's almost 7 am here and I've not yet slept.

-=Brother Praetus=-

This one point is still highly debatable, but it seems to be the way most people lean with it. As I believe was stated previously, try it out with allowing them to use it prior to their attacks, see if it seems to be too much or not. But I would definitely not let them attack/move/attack using Assassin's Strike, nor use the talent more than once in any given round.

It is? Considering Assassin's strike only triggers after a melee attack, how do you get anywhere without it?

@Friend Of The Dork

2. You cannot normally interrupt a full attack, take free action etc. in between, and continue attacks as if nothing happened, and if you can you probably cannot do it more than once (and even then it's up to the GM).

[...]

Hmm after reading the combat chapter against I cannot find anything saying you can't take a free action in between a full attack. Actually, it says you can banter taunt etc. as a free action at the same time you are doing another action.

Personally, I consider it absolutely acceptable to use Assassin's strike both in between a full attack and multiple times - it's not a half action and therefore probably not affected by the "no duplicate half actions" rule. What you should watch out for, however, is the combination of Counterattack and Assassin's Strike - by a strict reading of the rules, the assassin would probably be able to interrupt an enemy lightning attack with a counterattack after having parried, then use the counterattack to trigger assassin's strike to move away from the enemy who (without an assassin's strike of his own) can't follow.

As for your assassin, yeah, the catch is the use of the charge - a charge is different from the Lightning Attack action you need for multiple attacks. Pre-ascension, that's probably the most important limitation for melee characters: You can never do more than one attack if you didn't start your turn adjacent to an enemy.

Cifer said:

how about counterstrike? but that would not be on your own turn

Cifer said:

Oh bother. That's what I get for posting while sleep deprived and under the mind altering effects of a Neverwhere bender. I miss and/or overlook these little tidbits and nuggets of information.

Sirion said:

Well, there's nothing in the description of Assassin's Strike which seems to indicate that it couldn't be triggered as an interrupt following a successful counterstrike. That particular use sounds about right to me.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Doesn't it have to be your turn if you're going to be doing something else than a reaction?

It seems a bit off to me that this makes parrying better for avoiding a flurry of blows than dodge. If you're such an awesome assassin that you can just jump out of the way, why do you even need the counter attack?

It seems rather clear to me that assassins strike is more than just being agile, it's about controlling the combat which is why you have to engage rather than just be engaged and attack rather than just doing the agile jumping about.

It's assassins strike , not assassins jumping dodging disengage . That's acrobatic disengage and takes more work since you're not controlling the combat, just getting out smoothly.

I would say that assassins strike is a mix of fast controlled movements, leaps and rolls teamed up with a huge amount of combat perception/reactions, after all it all goes to hell if you bump into someone or worse, trip.
and personally I quite like the combo of assassins strike and lightning attack since its gets that rapid movement feel going as you navigate your way through your targets body guards to liberate his head from his body and make a quick getaway all in a matter of seconds.
Personally I feel the reaping is more of an ambush talent, best used in suprise rounds, expecially effective when teamed up with good planning, such as hiding above your targets and dropping directly in there midst to unleash the reaping then using assassins strike to get out of immediate danger and survey the situation.

I find this combo is important to a awesome and successful moritat.

Sure, that sounds mighty awesome and iconic. Just about as awesome and iconic as a gunslinger running forward, trenchcoat flowing behind him while hipshooting full auto.

Hipshooting occupies about the same place in ranged combat as assassins strike. It allows you to combine an attack with moving your full rate, I.E. engage (half action move) attack (half action) and move (half action as free action), like hipshooter, and get into combat/out of combat while attacking, like hipshooter (shoot while moving from cover to cover). That's the way I've always read it anyway.

The only drawback for swift/lightning attack is that you need to begin your round engaged in melee combat and unless you waste every foe you'll still be in melee combat.after. Assassin strike does enough without replicating the death cult assassins preternatural speed.

Graspar said:

I think it is a GM-decision to allow and or disallow the use of free actions when it is not your turn (including quick-drawing a weapon to parry and talking)