25 minutes ago, Luahk said:

@P-47 Thunderbolt
' They don't have to watch their actions, because they aren't worried about slipping. In a campaign focused on dark side characters, this is lackluster.'
Yes.

' You want a mechanic to make them concerned about going too dark side?'
No.

I see the usage of the darkside itself as inherently dangerous. (I put this in bold because I feel this has been wildly missed despite numerous posts and i'm unsure how to be clearer. Not to be a ****.)
As in every time you use it that it costs you, changes and alters you in ways beyond simple morality.

I am aware @Daeglan of the redemption mechanics. That's not at all what i'm discussing or seeking. Nor am I trying to 'force' anything.

I am also aware, as @emsquared laboured with, about the morality system. I do not feel that it comes close to covering what I highlighted in bold.
If i did I wouldn't be here.
what you said in your first post was describing a secondary morality system with aesthetic or intangiable differences. Which have no actual mechanical cost and end up at the same conclusion of the Morality system of you becoming an NPC.
That's not cutting it for me.
And whilst the Trauma mechanic introduced in the Genesys core is a good start i've not tried it to say that it does work but on paper that's more what I want.

It strikes me, based on this conversation, that most of you are perfectly happy with the set up as is. That the current format works perfectly fine, even in the setting i'm using, so there is no deficiency to speak of. So it could just be that I have a fundamental disagreement upon the way in which the Darkside works.

Mr @ErikModi

I don't see it that way, or at least I don't set up things nor do I RP in a setting where that is the case. You go on to say...and perhaps most PRECISELY..lie in the disagreement with your intriguing philosophy again where we diverge (and i'm happy to do so btw I've no problem with being the other side of the fence)
' It's their galaxy, everyone else is just living in it.'
I get this sentiment. I seriously do. But this is..the hero of tython's galaxy...or THeron shan's. We often RP as characters significantly below the "Heroric" level. But with the potential to get there. Certainly when I set the table that's what I am for my players to RP in whenever we use this setting. ESPECIALLY as darksiders. They are special, as force users its easy to say they have high potential or something, but they're not Luke's party special yet.

Back toThunderbolt (not that I don't appreciate all responses but he and I have had other chats a lot of times before) I've tried for years to handle this through roleplay. It has had varying degrees of success and failure.

The reason I use this system, or any for that matter, is consistency and objectivity. I imagine many here have come from forum or text based RP where dice are not used...I prefer them because of what options it lends to me. I've tested a few home rules before that I wasn't satisfied with because they were too punishing (as I think Erik said) or actually did the reverse and made it even less of consequence to use darkside characters. I'm hoping to figure out something that lends that consistency whilst remaining in that narrative crux.

I wasn't talking about the redemption mechanics.

7 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

That last question is especially important.

So at 25 points, X applies. At 50 points, Y applies. At 100 points, Z applies, at 200 A, at 400 B, etc.
Or it can be linear, so 25-50-75-100-125-etc.

Someone, I think Absol but it was a while ago, mentioned something similar. That you face a sort of check at certain amount of usage and it's sort of like a gate? Once you've passed that gate you're mostly fine but you could have cost.

When Ems linked the trauma mechanic I was thinking something like
Using xamount of DS pips at one time prompts trauma roll of X difficulty.
DS areas of a certain strength would similarly trigger a check/challenge.

What do you mean roll against it?

4 hours ago, Luahk said:

And whilst the Trauma mechanic introduced in the Genesys core is a good start i've not tried it to say that it does work but on paper that's more what I want.

Would you prefer something like that, but that doesn't key off of Fear checks?

Something that instead mechanically triggers/reacts based off of player choices/actions?

Probably something that is not focused on the language of trauma of course?

Maybe something with more possibilities/levels of corruption?

Something tailored for a Star Wars feel?

5 hours ago, Luahk said:

What do you mean roll against it?

You generate X, so you roll a d10, giving you Y result. X-Y=points.

Or just don't, and count points without subtracting anything.

5 hours ago, Luahk said:

Someone, I think Absol but it was a while ago, mentioned something similar. That you face a sort of check at certain amount of usage and it's sort of like a gate? Once you've passed that gate you're mostly fine but you could have cost.

When Ems linked the trauma mechanic I was thinking something like
Using xamount of DS pips at one time prompts trauma roll of X difficulty.
DS areas of a certain strength would similarly trigger a check/challenge.

But at low levels, you'll never trigger it. At high levels, you'll pretty much always trigger it. If you set it at 3, you can't possibly trigger it until you've got FR2. At FR4, you'll probably trigger it most times you successfully activate a Force power to what you wanted.

I think it should be a matter of total pips minus a number, like with Morality, adding up over time. That makes it somewhat unpredictable and harder to game. You can't just go "Welp, I'm up against my limit for this session, guess I gotta just use my lightsaber for this one."

I suppose making a check when you get to a threshold makes sense. Easy for the first, Average for the second, etc. or something like that.

What mechanical consequences are you looking for? What happens when they reach a benchmark or fail a check?

6 hours ago, emsquared said:

Would you prefer something like that, but that doesn't key off of Fear checks?

Something that instead mechanically triggers/reacts based off of player choices/actions?

Probably something that is not focused on the language of trauma of course?

Maybe something with more possibilities/levels of corruption?

Something tailored for a Star Wars feel?

I came back to this late. I like the trauma @emsquared . I'm just gonna need to test it first before I can comment if it fits what I'm aiming for.

@P-47 Thunderbolt (why are there like 8 of your name when I try to tag?)

What if it was when converting ls to DS it triggered. That way the more powerful you are the better you are at doing so?

But I still like your idea when I re read it. The consequences I'm almost nowhere on. Strain is already factored in morality and trauma and I'm trying to conceptualise something that isn't too punishing. A hindrance, or something that can be worked around I think. I'm still wary like I said to erik of crippling players.

8 hours ago, Luahk said:

@P-47 Thunderbolt (why are there like 8 of your name when I try to tag?)

No idea. I think my internet and the forum were being weird one day.

8 hours ago, Luahk said:

What if it was when converting ls to DS it triggered. That way the more powerful you are the better you are at doing so?

But I still like your idea when I re read it. The consequences I'm almost nowhere on. Strain is already factored in morality and trauma and I'm trying to conceptualise something that isn't too punishing. A hindrance, or something that can be worked around I think. I'm still wary like I said to erik of crippling players.

Yeah, I think that might work. So if I roll 3 LS and 1 DS but I need 3 Force pips, I convert 2 LS to get that 3. Then that's 2 points. I think we can base it off of that. Balancing it will hinge on the consequences involved, of which I don't really have any ideas.

Should the consequences be narrative in nature, or should they actually mechanically affect the PC's performance? If they mechanically affect the PC's performance, how do they? You've got four categories there:

1. Characteristics
2. Skills
3. Talents
4. Derived Attributes

Another option would be Boost/Setback to certain checks.

Aite so its based on the amount of ls points you convert.

Let's go....per session...starting at 3) ls pips converted (assuming you've crossed the threshold as a ds char)

Trigger a setback die on discipline checks until the end of the encounter? (Unsure if too harsh)

After a further 3 (6 total) trigger a trauma check

9 something worse mebe

Random thoughts:

1) Using the DS could be like an addiction. Once you are addicted going without it (not being/doing evil so to say) causes withdrawal, but using too much more makes you more addicted. At some point that addiction may kill you.

2) I don't get the idea that the Sith, as a culture (if that word really applies, are total Anarchists. Many of them value order, meaning people do what they are told. I think there is room here for law and order type consequences to certain actions. Darth Random isn't going to just ignore the fact that when you killed his apprentice you spoiled 10 years of plotting, etc.

3) There is a difference, to me, between desiring ultimate power, or the ability to do whatever I want, and being evil. What I would call Evil will torture/kill/destroy just for the fun of it, or because they like causing suffering. It might also tie in with a goal, but it doesn't have to at all. Are your players power mad, amoral, or really Evil?

4) Jedi always (as I read it) have to worry about the lure of the DS. Do Sith have to worry about the lure of the LS? Or is this a one way street? If a Sith doesn't torture and kill an enemy, does that cause Conflict? I'd think it would be difficult to do evil all the time. You would run out of people to kill.

5) Also, why wouldn't these PCs kill each other? Doesn't someone has a bright shiny that someone else wants? If they are Sith, what would stop them from killing the other guy in his sleep and taking it?

5 hours ago, RickInVA said:

2) I don't get the idea that the Sith, as a culture (if that word really applies, are total Anarchists. Many of them value order, meaning people do what they are told. I think there is room here for law and order type consequences to certain actions. Darth Random isn't going to just ignore the fact that when you killed his apprentice you spoiled 10 years of plotting, etc.

It's always the Sith Empire, never the Sith Free Anarchist Collective. When Sith talk about freedom, they talk about a very specific kind of freedom that only benefits the person talkin gat the moment. "I got mine and everybody else can die for all I care".

On 12/20/2020 at 10:31 PM, RickInVA said:

Random thoughts:

2) I don't get the idea that the Sith, as a culture (if that word really applies, are total Anarchists. Many of them value order, meaning people do what they are told. I think there is room here for law and order type consequences to certain actions. Darth Random isn't going to just ignore the fact that when you killed his apprentice you spoiled 10 years of plotting, etc.

Thats not anarchy. That is what some people want you to think anarchy is. No they are tyranny. Despotism. And every other terrible description. But it isnt anarchy. Anarchy is a lack of laws. The Sith have lots of law because they want total control.