20 minutes ago, xanderf said:

Do you have a rule more clear that you are referring to, beyond " They cannot modify a ship model in any way that would create confusion about which ship the model represents. "?

Because no ship models are being modified, here. It's a Delta-7 base, Delta-7 card, Delta-7 on the list provided to my opponent, and a Delta-7 on the stand (with some decorative elements alongside).

What rule is being violated? That was the question in my OP - and nobody has come up with one, yet.

A single delta-7 on a single delta-7 base should be fine. Using other models on a base with a delta-7 could cause confusion, which is explicitly not allowed:

On 12/15/2020 at 1:07 PM, bkcammack said:

They cannot modify a ship model in any way that would create confusion about which ship the model represents.

Delta-7 models next to V-19 models could create confusion as to what squadron is represented.

On 12/15/2020 at 1:07 PM, bkcammack said:

Ship fins or pegs (including the connecting pegs affixed to ship models) may be modified or replaced with a different connecting method.

I would say if you use a single fighter peg instead of a three fighter peg you’re good. That’s fairly clearly explained in the tournament regulations (assuming “ship” refers to both ships and squadrons).

As @Snipafist mentioned, the issues is when you start mixing models on the same base. It can cause confusion, especially when just quickly glancing at the board. In a tournament setting, if you bring custom models you should always be prepared with the standard models. I know someone who used a Venator as a stand in for an AFMK2 at LVO. He had the AF ready in case someone asked about it and wanted him to use standard models.

TL;DR-I don’t see a situation where a TO would say you can’t use 4 Delta-7’s as long as you have the cardboard and cards. You may be asked to remove non-delta-7 models from a mixed stand, though.

2 minutes ago, bkcammack said:

TL;DR-I don’t see a situation where a TO would say you can’t use 4 Delta-7’s as long as you have the cardboard and cards. You may be asked to remove non-delta-7 models from a mixed stand, though.

I can see that ask, sure. 4x base plates, 4x Delta-7 models on 4x stands. Not an issue removing the V-19s.

The implied suggestion that you need 12x Delta-7 models to represent 4x Delta-7s...is more questionable?

1 minute ago, xanderf said:

I can see that ask, sure. 4x base plates, 4x Delta-7 models on 4x stands. Not an issue removing the V-19s.

The implied suggestion that you need 12x Delta-7 models to represent 4x Delta-7s...is more questionable?

I don’t think any TO will require you to have 12 Delta 7 models. A single model doesn’t create confusion like a mixed model would. Even a single Delta-7 on a three squadron stand (with the other two spots empty) should be ok. Especially with all the errors in picking the squad packs have had. You are allowed to modify the stands, so using a single peg stand should be fine. You’re fulfilling the customization rules as written.

2 hours ago, bkcammack said:

I don’t think any TO will require you to have 12 Delta 7 models. A single model doesn’t create confusion like a mixed model would. Even a single Delta-7 on a three squadron stand (with the other two spots empty) should be ok. Especially with all the errors in picking the squad packs have had. You are allowed to modify the stands, so using a single peg stand should be fine. You’re fulfilling the customization rules as written.

So with just one cc and one rebel squadrons 1 expansion, I can run norra, dutch, gold and y-wing with 1 model on each? Good to know! 😄 👍

14 hours ago, xanderf said:

I mean...look at the base plate? Isn't that what we play the game through, anyway? The models are only ever decorative in this game.

The base plate very clearly shows these to be Delta-7s.

Yep very clear (not!)... I mean look at the Aces base plates of other sqns.... ( I mean look at the TIE Bombers ace plates and see how similar they are espically on a table upside down.... and then put the X-Wing, Y wing aces next to each other ones - as said from across a gaming table when those plates are upside down to you with models on and the dial obscuring the trait icons)

So yeah, one or 2 Delta-7s with escorts I'd kinda be ok with, not very happy but I can track 1 or 2. As soon as you start having 3+ and having V-19s on the table then no, I'd struggle keeping track of what is what.... The models are to say which sqn it is and what standard stats it has (speed, hull) then the plate says if its generic or not and which none generic card to use for the weapon stats & extra rules.

Not everyone plays Armada week in, week out... or just know every unit at a glance

2 hours ago, bkcammack said:

I don’t think any TO will require you to have 12 Delta 7 models. A single model doesn’t create confusion like a mixed model would. Even a single Delta-7 on a three squadron stand (with the other two spots empty) should be ok. Especially with all the errors in picking the squad packs have had. You are allowed to modify the stands, so using a single peg stand should be fine. You’re fulfilling the customization rules as written.

I'd argue that yes you should have 12 Delta 7s... they are not irregular sqns so shouldnt have a single model on the stand....

In fact the RRG states that they DO need to be the same model type & be 3 to a normal squardon.. no IFs BUTs or MAYBEs about it.

pg 19 SQUADRON

Quote

A squadron consists of a plastic squadron base, plastic fighters , a punchboard disk, a punchboard activation slider, and a squadron card. The disk, fighters, and squadron card must all correspond to the same squadron type .

I've bolded the relavent sections.. thats fighters plural so more than 1... and they must all corralate to the same type which V-19s & Delta-7s dont.

Then you have pg 36 saying that none-irregular squadrons cant be represented by a single model

Quote

IRREGULAR SQUADRONS Q: Can a player choose to count as an irregular squadron a single model from a tree-peg squadron placed on a single-extender peg? A: No. Only squadrons that are physically represented by a model on a single peg (instead of a tree peg) count as irregular squadrons. For example, this includes squadrons such as YT-2400’s or VT-49 Decimators, not A-wings or TIE Interceptors

& page 10 also says that a normal squadron consists of 3 models

Quote

IRREGULAR SQUADRON Some squadrons are irregular squadrons. Squadrons of this type feature a single plastic fighter model (instead of three ). Despite this difference in appearance, irregular squadrons follow all of the rules for normal squadrons.

1 hour ago, Muelmuel said:

So with just one cc and one rebel squadrons 1 expansion, I can run norra, dutch, gold and y-wing with 1 model on each? Good to know! 😄 👍

Honestly, I’d be fine with it. You’ve got the cardboard and you’ve got a clear physical representation of what the squad is supposed to be.

58 minutes ago, slasher956 said:

Then you have pg 36 saying that none-irregular squadrons cant be represented by a single model

Actually, it says that placing a regular squadron on a single stand doesn’t make it count as an irregular squadron. In other words, removing 2 minis doesn’t make an A-wing irregular.

At present, the only time whether a squad is regular or irregular matters is for a few RiTR objectives. Irregular squadrons don’t matter for casual or tournament play.

Let me ask this: Would you disqualify a player if they lost a single TIE bomber mini from one of their squads? Or if they only received 5 Y-wings in a squadron pack from FFG can they only field one squadron instead of two? Or if a Tie fighter breaks in the middle of a tournament do they have to drop out? While, as you demonstrated, you could rule that way, that’s not very likely in my experience. As long as the mods don’t interfere with your opponents’ ability to read the board, most modifications are typically allowed. I don’t think a single Delta 7 on a stand (or Y wing, or any other squadron mini) would cause confusion for the vast majority of people.

Should you have all twelve minis? Probably. Will anyone you play have a serious objection to it? Unlikely.

13 minutes ago, bkcammack said:

Let me ask this: Would you disqualify a player if they lost a single TIE bomber mini from one of their squads? Or if they only received 5 Y-wings in a squadron pack from FFG can they only field one squadron instead of two? Or if a Tie fighter breaks in the middle of a tournament do they have to drop out?

If they start arguing that its their opppnents fault for not being fluent in delta baseplates, then yes I would.

In most circumstances where the player is suitably apologetic and has tried to be reasonable, no.

@bkcammack - If they have 1 missing model then it obvious that its been lost, and I know how easy that is :p.... however running a single fighter model on a tree to get more squads I feel is out of place in a tournament ... although to be fair hadnt though of doing that in friendly club games! 😛

<goes off to see how the rest of the club would react :p>

17 hours ago, xanderf said:

I mean...look at the base plate? Isn't that what we play the game through, anyway? The models are only ever decorative in this game.

The base plate very clearly shows these to be Delta-7s.

Nah, I completely disagree, and I already addressed that in the post you're quoting. Yes, you can find out what is by inspecting the base (and no, it's not "very clear", it's actually quite hard to see, particularly when it's obstructed by the peg), but it impairs my head-map of the state of the game. I expect that's why the rules cover this.

The models are not decorative, they're the quick way of understanding what is where. I can tell at a glance what's an ISD, what's a Gladiator, what's an Interdictor. I only need to inspect the base if there are multiple ships of the same type. I think that's the important point actually - the model is important for the at-a-glance information it provides.

Look, this all seems very simple. You bring all the stuff, and before you start, you ask your opponent if it would bug him if you just used one Delta-7 on the stand, because you feel like Jedi don’t fly in squads of three or something. “Would that confuse you at all? ‘Cause I definitely don’t want to do anything which would distract from the game.” And if he says, “Actually I’d be more comfortable if you just had all the fighters on the stands as written,” you put ‘em on. And if he says, “As long as you don’t mind that my Vader has two TIE/ln’s on his wing!” then you leave them off.

But guys, just because we saw a few seconds of footage in Episodes II & III where there were Jedi flying in formations of fewer than three, or formations containing other fighters as well, does not mean that a standard Jedi squadron wasn’t three fighters. Obi-Wan and Anakin flew in a pair during the Battle of Coruscant. Why wouldn’t Jedi fly in threes? Just because you have the Force doesn’t mean you don’t need wingmen.

4 minutes ago, Cpt ObVus said:

But guys, just because we saw a few seconds of footage in Episodes II & III where there were Jedi flying in formations of fewer than three, or formations containing other fighters as well, does not mean that a standard Jedi squadron wasn’t three fighters. Obi-Wan and Anakin flew in a pair during the Battle of Coruscant. Why wouldn’t Jedi fly in threes? Just because you have the Force doesn’t mean you don’t need wingmen.

"Wing commanders, form up. We're going in."

2 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

"Wing commanders, form up. We're going in."

I knew it. And I didn’t even watch Clone Wars!

Rules only tend to be enforced when challenged. I think in this scenario, @xanderf , your fate lies with your opponent (but if you were challenged, you likely would be found not meeting the criteria). Would I challenge such a rule? Heck no!

From the RRG:


SQUADRON

A squadron consists of a plastic squadron base, plastic fighters, a punchboard disk, a punchboard activation slider, and a squadron card.

The disk, fighters, and squadron card must all correspond to the same squadron type.

No Mixing Allowed. Full Stop.

Secondary rule:

IRREGULAR SQUADRON

Some squadrons are irregular squadrons. Squadrons of this type feature a single plastic fighter model (instead of three).

The "instead of three" is important there.

Squardrons are composed of 1 if they are Irregular, and 3 of not.

THere are no Squadrons of 2 or 4 or 15.

On 12/16/2020 at 1:49 AM, bkcammack said:

Actually, it says that placing a regular squadron on a single stand doesn’t make it count as an irregular squadron. In other words, removing 2 minis doesn’t make an A-wing irregular.

At present, the only time whether a squad is regular or irregular matters is for a few RiTR objectives. Irregular squadrons don’t matter for casual or tournament play.

Let me ask this: Would you disqualify a player if they lost a single TIE bomber mini from one of their squads? Or if they only received 5 Y-wings in a squadron pack from FFG can they only field one squadron instead of two? Or if a Tie fighter breaks in the middle of a tournament do they have to drop out? While, as you demonstrated, you could rule that way, that’s not very likely in my experience. As long as the mods don’t interfere with your opponents’ ability to read the board, most modifications are typically allowed. I don’t think a single Delta 7 on a stand (or Y wing, or any other squadron mini) would cause confusion for the vast majority of people.

Should you have all twelve minis? Probably. Will anyone you play have a serious objection to it? Unlikely.

There is a whole section of "Lost models in tournaments' in the regulations as well."

and it can well lead to disqualification.

On 12/16/2020 at 12:49 AM, bkcammack said:

Or if a Tie fighter breaks in the middle of a tournament do they have to drop out?

8 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

There is a whole section of "Lost models in tournaments' in the regulations as well."

and it can well lead to disqualification.

Lost, apparently yes; that's really too strict for squadrons, especially when they can't ship them out in the right ratios, and don't even QC review samples .

As for damaged, page 8 of the text version of the tournament rules reads:

• Damaged Ship/Squadron Model or Connection: The model, in its damaged state, does not impede the progress of play and abides by the rules under “Component Modifications” on page 7. If the model does impede play, the player keeps the model near the rest of his or her fleet for the remainder of the tournament.

Although who knows how long that, or anything quoted in this thread, will be relevant? AMG may put out their own Organized Play document before any big tournaments start back up.