26 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I feel there is some accumulated irritation being let slip there.

10 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

Probably just coming to grips with the effects of the short visit Matsu Tsuko made to Kyuden Kakita, and Daidoji Uji's time to leave message.

It all began in an idly South American winter in 2001...

Well, I may not have been silent about that, but I have always found the Lion Clan the most boring and irritating clan, except for the Kitsu family and the Matsu most of all. I will admit that having the Kakita as my favorite family certainly helped cement this bias.

In fairness, that's far from the only example.

• Lady Matsu was the archetypical arrogant Lion samurai:
  • She challenged Akodo to a duel - fair enough - but then refused to stand by the results; I'm not advocating people being compelled to marry against their will, but she issued the challenge, agreed to the terms, then reneged on them when she lost.
  • The whole Matsu/Kakita feud stems from Lady Matsu being outraged at being treated exactly the way she'd treated everyone she'd beaten in previous rounds.
• The Ki-Rin/Kitsune affair: " Invading " someone is not the same thing as " Helping " them.
• Matsu Tsuko is pretty much a complete re-tread of the original Lady Matsu
  • Totally unable to accept that Akodo Arasou died because he listened to her not to his brother, meaning his death is in no small part her fault.
  • Insisting on keeping the Matsu daimyoship despite being betrothed to marry the Akodo daimyo (which, whilst it may not seem wrong to modern sensibilities is a huge deal in Rokugani custom, especially since the Lion didn't allow the same freedoms to the Unicorn clan champion).
  • Killing the 'Warriors of the Boar' ronin out of hand for abusing 'Lion' peasants (fair enough, to be honest) and then expecting Kuwanan to find out who was behind it after butchering the one person who actually represented a useful lead before questioning them.
  • Diverting Arasou's funeral cortege to the battlefront to indulge her desire for revenge then simultaneously arguing Arasou's spirit 'wasn't at peace' when she hadn't completed the funerary traditions.
  • Launching a coup against the Clan Champion on the grounds of a justification which (given that everyone knew she was the best duellist present - she was Topaz Champion in her Gempukku year) boiled down to nothing more than "I say I'm champion now and if anyone disagrees, I'll kill them. Honourably, of course."

That’s part of the point of the Lion Clan, though. They’re the paragons of the ‘Honor’ portion of Bushido and also Right Hand of the Emperor. So the Akodo are strategists, what can they get away with that’s technically honourable? The Ikoma are historians and storytellers, so they’re willing to revise events until they seem honourable, and the Matsu are warriors, they believe that victory is honourable, so as long as they win they’re justified.

5 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

It is an observed rule in-setting, and appears to be a universal one, that Utaku steeds will for some reason not accept a male rider.

Which is basically taken from the common myth (from earth cultures, not rokugan) that unicorns only allowed virgin girls on their back, explaining the "maiden" part of the Battle Maidens.

Indeed. Though the shiotome are recast in a significantly more badass fashion than the tradition twee version of "princess and her pet unicorn"....

Also, whilst I agree on the inspiration, I'm not sure a specific reason has ever been articulated in the setting, just that this is apparently 'a thing that happens' - and it's definitely not a virginal thing in Rokugan, since Utaku Kamoko's mother was killed whilst serving with the shiotome.

How did this go from how definitive and reliable the Moshi's claim of being the exclusive line to the highest divinity within the Rokugan religious hierarchy and whether that is a reliably basis on which to make sweeping decisions that significantly impact an individual's life in a way that prevents them from producing heirs from very early childhood to the simple sentiment that "the Matsu are unreasonable" as though it is any secret that the Lion Clan in general is a primary driver of unnecessary strife and conflict within Rokugan that may possible eclipse any benefit they provide in supplying troops to the Imperial Legions. Somehow the Kitsu and Ikoma seeming as though they should be relatively reasonable in no way mitigates that.

All built upon the Lion Clan revolving their entire culture around conflict, yet being situated directly in the center of Rokugan where the only people to test and refine their war technique and skills against are their fellow Rokugani. Unlike the Crab Clan, there really is no constructive purpose to the Lion Clan's obsession with warfare. Potentially, should Rokugan be invaded, the Lion Clan's production of troops for the defense of Rokugan would be needed-- but that happened only once in 1000 years and the Lion Clan didn't even prove particularly useful during that one time when there was someone other than Rokugani to do war against given that the war was primarily a naval conflict.

So-- yes-- the Matsu suck. And unlike the Akodo, there aren't many things you can point to in order to mitigate just how negatively they impact Rokugan. Maybe they aren't as bad as well... virtually every family in the Scorpion Clan-- but they certainly do more harm than good.

But the thread is meant to be about whether the Moshi's claim about being the representatives of Amaterasu is remotely reliable or warranted or whether it seems like Amaterasu would have some deep grudge against all males that she would only speak to females and what effect it would have on Rokugan if there were a group of people who could directly communicate with the highest divinity and if that is at all indicative with the rest of the lore about the Centipede Clan.

Then present some quote from anywhere in the canon that say they can't, or that even show us that people in Rokugan doubt claims. As is, the Moshi's relation and connection to Lady Sun has been fairly consistent across multiple sources for multiple versions of the L5R setting, none of which (except the 1E books) have been presented as potentially being unreliable narrator work. This new text simply imports into the new canon something that was well established in the setting previously. At that point, you neeed something a little stronger than "I feel this is inconsistent" (which is what your argument boils down to). Essentially, your position is similar to the people arguing that Endor must have been ruined from the debris of the first Death Star in ROTJ, despite it now being clearly established in both the old EU and New Canon that Endor was not ruined. It may feel logically consistent to you, but it is not supported by any version of the canon.

Also might I say that it's a little weird watching you change gear from your dislike of the setting being grounded in "this might be bad trans representation" to "Amaterasu has a deep grudges against all males".

19 hours ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

But the thread is meant to be about whether the Moshi's claim about being the representatives of Amaterasu is remotely reliable or warranted

No it wasn't. It was, starting from the out-of-character established position that it is , wondering what Lady Moshi has been told to do.

I am a bit sad at the hostility against the Lion Clan and particularly the Matsu. I understand the sentiment that some might not like them, but I never thought that people dislike them to the point that they think the setting would be better off without them. I think every Clan and family adds to the setting, even the unreasonable and destructive ones.

1 hour ago, Matsu Kenshin said:

I am a bit sad at the hostility against the Lion Clan and particularly the Matsu. I understand the sentiment that some might not like them, but I never thought that people dislike them to the point that they think the setting would be better off without them. I think every Clan and family adds to the setting, even the unreasonable and destructive ones.

Sadly as a Mantis player from the old game I am used to this. The kneejerk reaction from the player base tends to be to "hate" the clans or characters who are being positioned as "villains" and to usually start parroting that the game would be better without them. I've just learned to ignore the haters and keep trucking with what your clan is doing.

1 hour ago, Matsu Kenshin said:

I am a bit sad at the hostility against the Lion Clan and particularly the Matsu. I understand the sentiment that some might not like them, but I never thought that people dislike them to the point that they think the setting would be better off without them. I think every Clan and family adds to the setting, even the unreasonable and destructive ones.

To be fair, I have always found the Lion Clan uninteresting, the Matsu most of all. I am the first to admit the Kakita bias is a part of that but the Lion are all just “we know how to fight and we bully our neighbours”. Taking from another game, they are the Get of Fenris of the setting, with the Matsu over representing this trope. The Kitsu are, for me at least, the only cool family in the Lion Clan, specially considering that they might have some grudges towards the rest of the clan for committing supernatural genocide.

16 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

Sadly as a Mantis player from the old game I am used to this. The kneejerk reaction from the player base tends to be to "hate" the clans or characters who are being positioned as "villains" and to usually start parroting that the game would be better without them. I've just learned to ignore the haters and keep trucking with what your clan is doing.

Well, the only joke I ever make is that the Spider Clan had more right in being a Great Clan than the Mantis because the Mantis don’t have a Child of the Sun and the Moon as their founder/patron. Other than that, hey, playing a pirate samurai (or samurai pirate depending how you wanna put it) sounds like a bad mixture of genres but work fine for them.

4 minutes ago, DSalazar said:

Well, the only joke I ever make is that the Spider Clan had more right in being a Great Clan than the Mantis because the Mantis don’t have a Child of the Sun and the Moon as their founder/patron. Other than that, hey, playing a pirate samurai (or samurai pirate depending how you wanna put it) sounds like a bad mixture of genres but work fine for them.

Hey Mantis trace back to Hida just as clearly as the Crab do, plus O5R we had the Thunder Dragon (who gave up her divinity to recognize Yoritomo as an equal to the founding Kami) and Fortune of Fire and Thunder as our patrons.

As to "Samurai Pirates", wouldn't' be the first time that they showed up in various settings, but really I always saw the Mantis as the embodiment of the "merchant class" forcing the samurai class to recognize them and deal with them on equal footing which I found appealing from a story setting.

2 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

Hey Mantis trace back to Hida just as clearly as the Crab do, plus O5R we had the Thunder Dragon (who gave up her divinity to recognize Yoritomo as an equal to the founding Kami) and Fortune of Fire and Thunder as our patrons.

Yes, but Hida founded the Crab, the Mantis rejected their Crab heritage to go Mantis elsewhere. But, like I said, I usually just use this joke around a Mantis player to see them rolling their eyes or getting annoyed when I say the Spider had more legitimacy than them. 😂

3 hours ago, Matsu Kenshin said:

. I think every Clan and family adds to the setting, even the unreasonable and destructive ones.

Oh, the setting is richer, more complex and more involving for their existence and as such I'm glad they're there.

They're still jerks, though.

A goodly chunk of the Mantis hate stems from how they Borged other Minor Clans and more or less wiped out what made them interesting. I can't recall the exact phrasing, but I recall somebody going off on an amazing tear once about how the Centipede went from "pious sun priestesses" to "pirate henchwenches." Mantis flavor isn't inherently bad, but when it starts assimilating everything around it . . .

And at the very same time there was a thing with parts of the mantis fanbase that went along the lines of "all our diversity should mean we're very good at everything".

Which was about as annoying as the "our clan theme is perfection/excellence" argument for the Crane being best at all the things. (No; it means you might have individual Crane who are among the best at any specific discipline (Kuwanan, Rekai); but unless that discipline is something the Crane as a clan focus on, you won't have the clan as a whole on par with clans who actually do focus on that discipline, because the Crane just don't have the numbers, and Cranes just aren't encouraged to train in those fields, those who do being individual oddities (no Crane war college to plan wars, no Crane cavalry army to match the Unicorn).

7 hours ago, Kinzen said:

A goodly chunk of the Mantis hate stems from how they Borged other Minor Clans and more or less wiped out what made them interesting. I can't recall the exact phrasing, but I recall somebody going off on an amazing tear once about how the Centipede went from "pious sun priestesses" to "pirate henchwenches." Mantis flavor isn't inherently bad, but when it starts assimilating everything around it . . .

I hope that doesn't happen this time around. One thing I like in this version is that the RPG shows off Shiro Gotei as the second-sorry-third largest city, Yoritomo's-resouces-at-court being a bag of gold on par with the Scorpion or Crane, and basically underlining that by size and wealth the Mantis are already a par for the great clans without needing to hoover up all the other interesting minor clans.

That (a) makes the chip on their shoulder about being denied great clan status much more understandable, and (b) leaves the many minor clans that are more interesting for RPG players - Since they can be created, have all-out wars and be destroyed (see, for example, the hare) without upsetting the main LCG storyline where wiping out a great clan - or even a great clan family - is a huge deal.

It's the same reason I like the clan vassal families being fleshed out.

10 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I hope that doesn't happen this time around. One thing I like in this version is that the RPG shows off Shiro Gotei as the second-sorry-third largest city, Yoritomo's-resouces-at-court being a bag of gold on par with the Scorpion or Crane, and basically underlining that by size and wealth the Mantis are already a par for the great clans without needing to hoover up all the other interesting minor clans.

That (a) makes the chip on their shoulder about being denied great clan status much more understandable, and (b) leaves the many minor clans that are more interesting for RPG players - Since they can be created, have all-out wars and be destroyed (see, for example, the hare) without upsetting the main LCG storyline where wiping out a great clan - or even a great clan family - is a huge deal.

It's the same reason I like the clan vassal families being fleshed out.

In the defense of the "borgification" of the minor clans, at the time most of them didn't have a substantial identity beyond name of minor clan and possibly a few lines of flavor text. Most of the unique minor clan identity was later flushed out in RPG material that was being written after the merger had already occurred and often contradicted elements that were established previously in flavor text and extremely limited story appearances.

Moshi Wakiza for example was the only Centipede Shugenja (and she wasn't even that until the Crimson and Jade starters reprinted her with the extra minor clan trait instead of Unaligned which she had been since Imperial Edition to fill out bodies for the Yoritomo's Alliance) who was described in flavor text as having pulled Thunder from the Sky and hurling it at a Crab army. She was also misattributed as being part of the Three Man Alliance in the Crimson and Jade reprint. Post marriage to Yoritomo her flavor text mentions her trading her freedom for the Mantis Isles and her brothers name for a ring of gold which in hind sight seems odd since the Moshi were later in RPG supplements flushed out to be a Matriarchy and the worship of Lady Sun and being her high priestess was added at that time. However by that point the condensing of the Yoritomo's Alliance down to three families (the Mantis Centipede and Wasp) and an outlier family (the Fox) who later left the faction for a while (Original Kitsune Stronghold circa Hidden Emperor Arc didn't allow you to purchase Mantis Clan personalities so you had to make do with the Centipede, Wasp and Fox personalities). The only other Centipede personalities that were legal for the arc (Jade Edition) were Moshi Hito (who was an Unaligned Toturi's Army personality) and Moshi Shanegon (who is actually a War of the Spirits Era so 20+ years into integration of the two families) and was a Merchant (so likely one of the countless Mantis males who married into the Centipede to fill out numbers).

As to complaints about the art, well this was her first artwork

and the Experience version from Time of the Void

And the Centipede went through a second major upheaval during that period as the culmination of the Hidden Emperor period had Amaterasu commiting Jigai after the death of Onotangu in his duel with Hitomi and being replaced by a Naga empowered Hida Yakamo as the new Sun. It was much harder for them to continue as the Priestess of Amaterasu when she was no longer around to receive their worship, which lead to a questioning of the traditional Moshi identity and them embracing their new shared Mantis heritage (reinforced by an aggressive effort to marry Mantis males into the family in order to buff their numbers as the Centipede were a fairly small family prior to the Clan War).

The bigger complaint came from the Fox Clan fans, IIRC. Even if the Moshi became more Mantis than Centipede, the Clan made that choice of their own will. The Fox were forcefully absorbed.

33 minutes ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

The bigger complaint came from the Fox Clan fans, IIRC. Even if the Moshi became more Mantis than Centipede, the Clan made that choice of their own will. The Fox were forcefully absorbed.

But that can be blamed as much on the Crane who helped convince them not to join the Mantis post Clan War when they achieved great clan status and then abandoned them once they were under assault by the great Sea Spider. The actual absorption of the Fox was a result of a Race for the Throne Temptation and in story was the Mantis coming to the defense of an old ally who was under assault by the forces of the Shadow Dragon and Spider Clan agents and could have spared them suffering the same fate as the Sparrow clan who were infiltrated and later absorbed into the Spider Clan.

56 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

But that can be blamed as much on the Crane who helped convince them not to join the Mantis post Clan War when they achieved great clan status and then abandoned them once they were under assault by the great Sea Spider. The actual absorption of the Fox was a result of a Race for the Throne Temptation and in story was the Mantis coming to the defense of an old ally who was under assault by the forces of the Shadow Dragon and Spider Clan agents and could have spared them suffering the same fate as the Sparrow clan who were infiltrated and later absorbed into the Spider Clan.

You're not wrong. But from the point of view of the players, AEG forced the Kitsune to be absorbed by the Mantis, which resulted in an understandable antipathy.

14 minutes ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

You're not wrong. But from the point of view of the players, AEG forced the Kitsune to be absorbed by the Mantis, which resulted in an understandable antipathy.

But as well they weren't actually a playable faction at that point, and the Mantis alliance was at least backed up by story choices and existing story history between the two. Fox also did maintain a fair amount of their own identity post fealty as they were still the "honorable" wing of the Mantis decks and had their summon beast pokeball trick to represent their connection to Chikushudo.

While there were a few very vocal parties that were against it, they were actually in my experience a minority rather then the majority of Fox or Mantis players. Most of the complaining was actually coming from other clan players who just liked to rail against the Mantis since they didn't fit their "image" of the setting.

Thing is, the Mantis borged-

-The Moshi. Pious matriarchal sun priestesses started running around in almost-biknis throwing lightning.

-The Tsuruchi. Sword-breaking members of the samurai caste who had their own code to follow. All of that basically vanished, and they were just the archery guys after that. Of the three, the ones I felt were least damaged by the broadly uniform portrayal.

-The Kitsune. A bunch of tree-huggers as close as the setting will allow to stereotypical hippies or D&D druids, suddenly tagging along on thuggish pirate lout missions without a murmur.

They didn't just absorb Minor Clans- they absorbed the most interesting Minor Clans and leeched all the flavor out of them.

Nobody gave the Crab any static for eating the Falcon, because so little was done with ghosts in the old lore that they already felt like Diet Crab anyhow.

There were plenty of other things AEG fumbled about the Mantis (not least of which was not having them care in the slightest about the things they were supposed to be bad at) but when it comes to the Minor Clans, the Mantis probably wouldn't have been given quite so much Borg accusation if they'd hoovered up the macho swaggering Badger, the "we do it our way, screw the Great Clans!" Ox, or the, "oh, right, they're only still a minor clan for arbitrary word of god reasons" Tortoise.

I mean, granted, the Badger and Ox don't have coastal holdings, but given how often the Mantis were kept out of plotlines because "nobody could get there on a boat," I think it could have been worked around.

47 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Thing is, the Mantis borged-

-The Moshi. Pious matriarchal sun priestesses started running around in almost-biknis throwing lightning.

-The Tsuruchi. Sword-breaking members of the samurai caste who had their own code to follow. All of that basically vanished, and they were just the archery guys after that. Of the three, the ones I felt were least damaged by the broadly uniform portrayal.

-The Kitsune. A bunch of tree-huggers as close as the setting will allow to stereotypical hippies or D&D druids, suddenly tagging along on thuggish pirate lout missions without a murmur.

They didn't just absorb Minor Clans- they absorbed the most interesting Minor Clans and leeched all the flavor out of them.

Nobody gave the Crab any static for eating the Falcon, because so little was done with ghosts in the old lore that they already felt like Diet Crab anyhow.

There were plenty of other things AEG fumbled about the Mantis (not least of which was not having them care in the slightest about the things they were supposed to be bad at) but when it comes to the Minor Clans, the Mantis probably wouldn't have been given quite so much Borg accusation if they'd hoovered up the macho swaggering Badger, the "we do it our way, screw the Great Clans!" Ox, or the, "oh, right, they're only still a minor clan for arbitrary word of god reasons" Tortoise.

I mean, granted, the Badger and Ox don't have coastal holdings, but given how often the Mantis were kept out of plotlines because "nobody could get there on a boat," I think it could have been worked around.

But most of that identity you talk about was retconned after the fact. When these families joined the Mantis they didn't have any of the "character" you complain about them losing.

And did you ignore the original Moshi Wakiza art I posted earlier. She was pretty Bikinish before she joined the Mantis and from her first appearance before she was even a Centipede she was described as throwing lightning.

Wasp code was all about Archery before, and stayed that way after they joined the Mantis. Their background was they were bounty hunters, and under the Mantis they became Magistrates so official bounty hunters instead of independent.

Fox stayed pretty hippyish since they kept the summoned animals theme. They also kept the honor theme which was separate from the general Mantis themes.

Yes they did adopt certain traits from the Mantis as well, but the same thing happened as you said to the Falcon who became just another Crab family, or the Sparrow who were forced to become the "public" face for the Spider.

As to your mention of other clans that could have been absorbed, Ox present two problems as they didn't come about until after the Clan War when Mantis had already been promoted to Great Clan Status and they were actually a front of the Kolat.

Badger were an after thought as they never really did anything with them.

I agree Tortoise would have made a much better fit (and in an ideal world if I were elevating the Mantis again would be one of the first Minor Clans that I would have searing fealty to the new clan along with the Wasp and a splinter Yasuki faction as the Carp clan so that I have my economic faction) but for what ever reason AEG didn't feel the same way.