Hey Forums, I come bearing content. Currently, a tournament legal list is defined as containing 2-8 ships. What do y'all think about this range?

Here's a poll: https://forms.gle/SDapcuFw7PbH6i1w8

I'll make a follow up post in a week or so with the results.

I’m tempted to vote 3 minimum. But definitely not more than 8 unless you can use a wing tool lol. Sooooo long to move....

I voted 2-8.

I think the current range of 2-8 is fine.

I love flying a list like double decimators which would need to have the minimum remain at that level.

I don't mind the 2 to 8. It's rare that a 2 ship list is efficient enough and an 8 ship swarm comes with it's own issues.

I wouldn't mind a hyperspace where they did 3 to 7 one season just to see what it looks like.

Nothing wrong with 2-8.

8 is a nice upper limit for swarms. 9 certainly seems too high, but I don't think limiting things to 7 is all that vital.

2 is kind of a necessity. 1 would be an issue. 3 would force unwanted filler ships into lists, and I don't really like that. I know some folks hate 2-ship aces lists, but I think the Double Pancake and Large Base + Ace archetypes are worth preserving.

Overall, I just don't think any change is needed. Most of the best ace lists have been 3 ship builds (3 ace or 2 + support). A lot of the best swarms have been 6-7 ship lists anyhow. 2 and 8 are outliers anyhow.

1 is broken cuz you can totally be that try-hard who seems to be playing legit but is actually just a lose-bot for others in a small tournament. (eg, take a big ship, but have like 0% chance of winning vs anyone competent).

Yes you can do 2 tie fighters in a list too, but people generally would know you're attempting shady stuff.

I'm not sure 9 is much worse than 8. 10? Who knows. Never done it. Prob a time sink.

Most chunky builds with a lot fo ships go to time also on modern 2.0 Xwing. Usually clocking out at 6 rounds when a usual game is 9 rounds.

3 to 8 was my vote.

I think 1 would be fine. I don't think that lose-bot situation would be normal, and apart from that it would be just fun to take a big ship and spend tons of points to make it into a real monster. Only to be totally destroyed by any other more realistic list, but still, it would be FUN, and that's the most important thing for me in a game.

More than 8 ships, on the other hand, would be a pain to move, taking forever, and would benefit cheap swarms too much.

I'm curious if you can build a huge ship that would make for an interesting match-up against standard 200 point lists. Just as a meme format for a game night.

1 hour ago, gamblertuba said:

I'm curious if you can build a huge ship that would make for an interesting match-up against standard 200 point lists. Just as a meme format for a game night.

Alderaanian Guard (146)
Ion Cannon Battery (5)
Targeting Battery (6)
Bombardment Specialists (6)
Damage Control Team (3)

Ship total: 166 Half Points: 83 Threshold: 13

Kyle Katarn (31)
Ship total: 31 Half Points: 16 Threshold: 3

Total: 197

This list wrecks shop. Kyle feeds focuses while the the Corvette just coasts down the board edge firing 3 shots per turn, pretty much from turn 1. With the regen, it typically does enough damage before it gets fired on to lean the game heavily in the Rebels favor.

considering people purchased products after being told the what they could use, it would be unethical for FFG to change that.

balancing points is one thing. it sucks sometimes but it can be helpful. but if someone told me I couldnt run both of my garbage loadout decimators or all my Z95s? Helll No

7 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

considering people purchased products after being told the what they could use, it would be unethical for FFG to change that.

balancing points is one thing. it sucks sometimes but it can be helpful. but if someone told me I couldnt run both of my garbage loadout decimators or all my Z95s? Helll No

I'd be down for maybe a Hyperspace season of different ship counts. Like a 3-7 ship format for just a bit.

On 12/1/2020 at 2:22 AM, xanatos135 said:

I think 1 would be fine. I don't think that lose-bot situation would be normal, and apart from that it would be just fun to take a big ship and spend tons of points to make it into a real monster. Only to be totally destroyed by any other more realistic list, but still, it would be FUN, and that's the most important thing for me in a game.

More than 8 ships, on the other hand, would be a pain to move, taking forever, and would benefit cheap swarms too much.

I hate to disagree, but I should lol.

Also worth noting that you're totally welcome to try this in casual games with some pals! Its a lot of fun to try. But for tournament games it opens up too many hairballs.

I've seen 0 ships in 2.0 that could be a reasonable 1 ship list. At the very best, surprisingly, Anakin 7B or Vader. However, these should straight up lose to double arc lists (which are the new "2.0turrets". They also generally win by running the clock to time, and sometimes unethically by trying to shorten the game to 6 or 7 meaningful turns rather than the 9 that most experienced players will naturally get in a game. And trust me, 6 turn games are NOT fun.

Epic ships are scaled in a non-linear fashion due to inherent focus fire and their base size. They're intended for 500 points of physical space squeeze, focus fire, etc. In that way, they're also not fun/balanced to play at 200v200 1v1 points.

8+ ships honestly do take forever.

I think the current 2-8 is fine and not the most needed part of Xwing 2.0 that needs improvement. Honestly I don't know what is the thing that needs most improvement... probably some new game modes, story-telling modes, faster play, etc. Oh, bulk/swarm values are getting too strong in general imo.

On 12/1/2020 at 9:07 AM, 5050Saint said:

Alderaanian Guard (146)
Ion Cannon Battery (5)
Targeting Battery (6)
Bombardment Specialists (6)
Damage Control Team (3)

Ship total: 166 Half Points: 83 Threshold: 13

Kyle Katarn (31)
Ship total: 31 Half Points: 16 Threshold: 3

Total: 197

This list wrecks shop. Kyle feeds focuses while the the Corvette just coasts down the board edge firing 3 shots per turn, pretty much from turn 1. With the regen, it typically does enough damage before it gets fired on to lean the game heavily in the Rebels favor.

well that isnt a legal list. of course it cleans up.

5 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

well that isnt a legal list. of course it cleans up.

Aside from being an epic list (the parameters that were given) , what's not legal?

Unpopular opinion: No limits either way as far as I'm concerned, yeet the whole rule.

If you can somehow play a super solo falcon in standard at close to 200 points, and it's balanced at that cost through whatever means, then fine. Let that one ship list be a thing. If they some how come up with a ship that's only worth 20/22 points, then let them fly 9 or 10 of them.

If something is busted or not providing good experience in 1 ship or 9/10 ship lists, then the obvious reason is that it wasn't costed right. If it's too good as a 9+ship Swarm, then clearly it's worth more than the cheap price tag and you need to raise it's cost. Boom. It's no longer a 9 ship list

You have a points system, you don't need a ship limits system. If a unit is causing problems for being too numerous or too few, I'd rather see it buffed/nerfed and then costed again to be min 25points or max whatever points so that it works.

14 hours ago, 5050Saint said:

Aside from being an epic list (the parameters that were given) , what's not legal?

The parameter of Epic list was not given. Rather the thread topic is the number of ships allowed in standard tournament play (2 to 8).

FFG (and virtually all players) agree that because Epic ships costs and power level are balanced favorably around surving the Epic format they are overpowered in smaller point games. this is why they require the consent of your opponent in casual games and arent allowed at all in tournament games. bringing a Corvette to a 200 point tourney would be an illegal list, just as flying 2 of the same unique upgrade or pilot.

1 hour ago, Vontoothskie said:

The parameter of Epic list was not given. Rather the thread topic is the number of ships allowed in standard tournament play (2 to 8).

FFG (and virtually all players) agree that because Epic ships costs and power level are balanced favorably around surving the Epic format they are overpowered in smaller point games. this is why they require the consent of your opponent in casual games and arent allowed at all in tournament games. bringing a Corvette to a 200 point tourney would be an illegal list, just as flying 2 of the same unique upgrade or pilot.

Maybe read the quoted part from his post. He was replying to someone being curious about a huge ship in 200 points as an experiment for a game.

So while maybe less relevant to the topic at large, it was aimed at gamblertuba's question.

Maybe all you could say on that is that I believe that it was more a question of only 1 huge ship vs a 200pt list, which would fall under the parameter change of the topic at large and the list given had 2 ships as normal in it.

Would base size be an important factor in list sizes? Ie double Deci is fine, but if you use a small base you need 3 ships.

just a thought as list building is so diverse, depending on faction, that limiting it too much could be a bad thing.

4 hours ago, Archangelspiv said:

Would base size be an important factor in list sizes? Ie double Deci is fine, but if you use a small base you need 3 ships.

just a thought as list building is so diverse, depending on faction, that limiting it too much could be a bad thing.

fair question, but you cant really fill a list with 1 small base ship so I don't see it as an issue. Personally I'd like to see a rule that a list has to be 185 or 190 points rather than set a minimum ship limit. just to keep people from doing dumb bids and trying to win with weird gambits like mega-coward Dash or Cloacking + stealth device on a lone wolf ace. There isn't a non-epic ship in the game that can get past 170 points alone, even equiping the most expensive upgrade in every slot.

The closest thing to a 1 ship list without a massive bid is a Ghost with a docked shuttle, which is technically a 2 ship list and thus already allowed, and I havent heard tales of that being unfun or unfair.

I've said for years that bids should be capped at like 5 anyway. Got a 193 pts list? Cool. You got a five point bid, the other two are just not spent. Tied for 5pt bid? Roll off, winner is stuck with initiative.

2 hours ago, ForceSensitive said:

I've said for years that bids should be capped at like 5 anyway. Got a 193 pts list? Cool. You got a five point bid, the other two are just not spent. Tied for 5pt bid? Roll off, winner is stuck with initiative.

That would probably just largely make 1st or 2nd player into a coin flip scenario, as most everyone ends up going with a 5 point bid. Which is maybe a better idea (force people to build lists which can’t rely on going second OR first), but does remove a little bit of meaningful choice and skill in list building.

I would love bid caps or brackets.

8 hours ago, Cpt ObVus said:

That would probably just largely make 1st or 2nd player into a coin flip scenario, as most everyone ends up going with a 5 point bid. Which is maybe a better idea (force people to build lists which can’t rely on going second OR first), but does remove a little bit of meaningful choice and skill in list building.

100%, it should be random. except i dont think bids have anything to do with skill. half the competive players are netlisting, which takes skill in list building out of the equation entirely. Innitiative is so critical in turn based games that choosing to have it isnt exactly skill based either.

Bids do not need a cap. Bids are a better chance to move at your choice upgrade . Bid points are not something un-used. A player gets something for points not put into the list. Points spent on a bid should be able to be scored without tabling the entire list just like points spent on any other upgrade are able to be scored. Points spent on a bid need to be scorable without needing to kill the entire list.