[Repost from my reddit account]

As you might infer from the title, I was trying to come up with a suitable homebrew of the Echani: a cool, martial-arts-oriented, human-like species. But halfway through, I realized I was making the Saiyans from Dragon Ball. Instead of backing up and and re-reading about the Echani for the billionth time on Wookieepedia, I decided to go full speed ahead and keep working out this idea that took root, just to see if I could be faithful to the source material without breaking the game.

Bear in mind, this isn't meant to encapsulate all the anime BS we see in Dragon Ball (flying, teleporting, transformations, etc.), but rather imagining the Saiyans as a culture and species if they were actually part of the Star Wars galaxy.

So without any further ado, take a look at draft 1:

BR 3 (Saiyans as a whole are a fairly hardy race, but the argument could be made to make them 2s across the board.)

AG 2

IN 2 (not all Saiyans are naïve dunces like Goku; some are brilliant scientists.)

WP 2

CU 2 (I considered making this a 3, because Saiyans are incredibly adept at surviving strange environs; they eat practically anything, and have few moral qualms that other species might have that hinder survival instincts; In his first appearance, Vegeta is seen eating the arm of what is assumed to be a sentient opponent he just killed.)

PR 1 (Most Saiyans are at least a little bit prickish, tending to take 'my way or the highway' stances, or outright threats and coercion when resolving disputes. Pretty sure Goku dumped all his XP into Presence at character creation.)

WT: Starting BR +12 (again, tough in general.)

ST: Starting WP +10

Starting XP: 90

Saiyans start with 1 rank of Brawl. This skill can be trained up to 3 at character creation.

Racial Traits:

- Instinctive Savagery : When unarmed, brawl attacks deal +1 damage per rank of Brawl.

I really wanted a trait that reflects the martial prowess of the Saiyan culture. Upon investing enough xp to get Brawl 5, the PC basically gets 'Deadly Accuracy: Brawl' for free. The downside is that this ONLY benefits them when they invest XP in Brawl, not upgrading it through other means, and activates solely when not using a weapon, much like Supreme Precision Strike.

Most Saiyans would likely consider using a weapon to be shameful (Trunks being the exception, since he was raised by his human mother.)

- Voracious Hunger : Saiyans require twice the normal amount of food other organic characters would.

Again, this is just a rough draft; I don't expect to generate a ton of discussion around this, and it's probably not very balanced. But it was fun to make, and I wanted to share.

You now that you mentioned it, I feel obligated to bring up my own Echani stats .

Don't know much about Saiyans, but some overall takeaways from a guy who has written over 200 homebrew stat blocks for this game:

• Allowing species to train a skill up to 3 at character creation is something of a taboo. The only examples that come to mind are RAW Corellian Humans and my Khommite stats , the latter of which I justified with their tendency toward extreme specialization. This means the precedent for allowing a skill to be trained up to 3 is about 1 in a hundred for RAW (and 1 in 328 for my stats). Plenty of species are good enough at something to receive a free rank, but the overall consensus if you want to match RAW is that allowing a skill to be trained up to 3 is not generally how things are supposed to work.
• Deadly Accuracy is a very expensive talent. Even though it comes with limitation that it must be used with Brawl and weapons are not allowed, it's still close to a 15 XP benefit. This isn't necessarily illegal to give a species a powerful ability, but you would need to further reduce XP if you did so. 3/2222/1 with a skill and a minor talent (+2 WT is equivalent to toughened and therefore is a reasonably close substitute for the latter category) is generally 100 XP. Deadly Accuracy with a caveat is, imo, a 15 or 20 XP talent, so that leaves you with close to 80 XP.
• Dietary requirements, similar to linguistic abilities, generally don't make it into a statblock (RAW Toydarians, RAW Hutts or my Ugor stats for example) unless they are incredibly important to the story. Their biggest impact is probably on food costs, just increasing the PC's cost of living. However, cost of living and spending credits in downtime aren't really covered in any particular rules; the GM is just expected to whatever is sensible or ignore it as minor spending in comparison the grand scheme of things. Furthermore, their versatile diet allows them to eat a wider variety of cheaper foods, essentially cancelling out the costs for increased volume.
• You mention their survivability in hostile environments; this may play out as a skill or talent. Especially since you chose not to increase cunning, you probably want to somehow represent it. Offering 1 rank in Survival or Brawl rather than just Brawl is one option that doesn't require changing XP, which is nice. Alternatively, you could offer the Forager talent or grant a special ability to represent their dietary versatility, similar to what I did what Kowakian Monkey-Lizards .

On 11/26/2020 at 10:17 AM, Yaccarus said:

You now that you mentioned it, I feel obligated to bring up my own Echani stats .

Don't know much about Saiyans, but some overall takeaways from a guy who has written over 200 homebrew stat blocks for this game:

• Allowing species to train a skill up to 3 at character creation is something of a taboo. The only examples that come to mind are RAW Corellian Humans and my Khommite stats , the latter of which I justified with their tendency toward extreme specialization. This means the precedent for allowing a skill to be trained up to 3 is about 1 in a hundred for RAW (and 1 in 328 for my stats). Plenty of species are good enough at something to receive a free rank, but the overall consensus if you want to match RAW is that allowing a skill to be trained up to 3 is not generally how things are supposed to work.
• Deadly Accuracy is a very expensive talent. Even though it comes with limitation that it must be used with Brawl and weapons are not allowed, it's still close to a 15 XP benefit. This isn't necessarily illegal to give a species a powerful ability, but you would need to further reduce XP if you did so. 3/2222/1 with a skill and a minor talent (+2 WT is equivalent to toughened and therefore is a reasonably close substitute for the latter category) is generally 100 XP. Deadly Accuracy with a caveat is, imo, a 15 or 20 XP talent, so that leaves you with close to 80 XP.
• Dietary requirements, similar to linguistic abilities, generally don't make it into a statblock (RAW Toydarians, RAW Hutts or my Ugor stats for example) unless they are incredibly important to the story. Their biggest impact is probably on food costs, just increasing the PC's cost of living. However, cost of living and spending credits in downtime aren't really covered in any particular rules; the GM is just expected to whatever is sensible or ignore it as minor spending in comparison the grand scheme of things. Furthermore, their versatile diet allows them to eat a wider variety of cheaper foods, essentially cancelling out the costs for increased volume.
• You mention their survivability in hostile environments; this may play out as a skill or talent. Especially since you chose not to increase cunning, you probably want to somehow represent it. Offering 1 rank in Survival or Brawl rather than just Brawl is one option that doesn't require changing XP, which is nice. Alternatively, you could offer the Forager talent or grant a special ability to represent their dietary versatility, similar to what I did what Kowakian Monkey-Lizards .

Thanks for the response, Yaccarus!

In terms of balance, I might ask you to check out the Green Niktos; they're 3/2/2/2/2/1 (I knew they were great martial artists thanks to @EliasWindrider , but forgot their stats), WT 11+B, ST 10+WP, and start with +1 Coordination and 100 XP. They also get unarmed brawl damage +1 and Crit 3 with their claws. They're absurdly good for any martial arts focused character.

Not trying to argue or anything, just asking if, in that light and considering the inherent weaknesses/restrictions I added, my homebrew might be considered a bit more 'balanced.'

41 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

Thanks for the response, Yaccarus!

In terms of balance, I might ask you to check out the Green Niktos; they're 3/2/2/2/2/1 (I knew they were great martial artists thanks to @EliasWindrider , but forgot their stats), WT 11+B, ST 10+WP, and start with +1 Coordination and 100 XP. They also get unarmed brawl damage +1 and Crit 3 with their claws. They're absurdly good for any martial arts focused character.

Not trying to argue or anything, just asking if, in that light and considering the inherent weaknesses/restrictions I added, my homebrew might be considered a bit more 'balanced.'

Emphasis on Green Niktos being "absurdly good." The issue with citing FFG's precedent is that FFG itself is not entirely consistent. I would view their Green Niktos as a hair overpowered, the most obvious way to prove that being in comparison to other Nikto subspecies. Green Niktos get a skill and two abilities (combat claws and climbing claws), versus other subspecies who get one skill and one ability. Natural weapons are quite valuable in most blocks, so combat claws alone are generally at 5 XP or a bit more. When you add the climbing ability on top of that, the two claw abilities add up to about 10 XP versus 5 XP for the minor talent or environmental adaptation of other subspecies. (See my slightly more balanced approach to Niktos ).

A comparison that I would draw would be to FFG's Gigorans . Both have Brawn 3, a 1, +2 WT, and a rank in Brawl. Beyond that, Gigorans get an environmental adaptation (5 XP) and a minor drawback (-5 XP), which essentially cancel. Thus, FFG also has precedent for those characteristics, boost to WT, and a skill being 100 XP. From there, you're left with allowing a skill to go above 2, the dietary drawback, and Deadly Accuracy with less freedom. Comparing Corellian Humans to normal Humans, the ability have a skill at 3 is equal to a free rank in a skill. Thus, that ability with Brawl should drop your species down to 95 XP. The dietary requirement is unprecedented in an FFG stat block, but it's safe to say that it should be between 0 and -5 XP, thus possibly bumping you back up to 100 XP. Either way though, Deadly Accuracy is generally a 15 XP or 20 XP talent. If we assume it's 15 XP, that leaves the Saiyans with 85 XP. 5 XP difference isn't a huge deal; I've seen plenty of both homebrew and official stat blocks that are off by more than 5, but I'd still think you're better off lowering it.

44 minutes ago, Yaccarus said:

Comparing Corellian Humans to normal Humans, the ability have a skill at 3 is equal to a free rank in a skill. Thus, that ability with Brawl should drop your species down to 95 XP. The dietary requirement is unprecedented in an FFG stat block, but it's safe to say that it should be between 0 and -5 XP, thus possibly bumping you back up to 100 XP. Either way though, Deadly Accuracy is generally a 15 XP or 20 XP talent. If we assume it's 15 XP, that leaves the Saiyans with 85 XP. 5 XP difference isn't a huge deal; I've seen plenty of both homebrew and official stat blocks that are off by more than 5, but I'd still think you're better off lowering it.

Thanks for the input, I really appreciate being able to ask questions and raise disagreements without immediately being called a power-gaming munchkin.

85 is fair; it still lets the character get 3 non-Brawn stats to 3 with the +10 xp from obligation/morality (or 2 stats and +1 FR if using the Short Path to Power rule.)

4 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

Thanks for the input, I really appreciate being able to ask questions and raise disagreements without immediately being called a power-gaming munchkin.

85 is fair; it still lets the character get 3 non-Brawn stats to 3 with the +10 xp from obligation/morality (or 2 stats and +1 FR if using the Short Path to Power rule.)

Another option if you want more XP would be to replace Deadly Accuracy with a less valuable ability, such as Feral Strength, or perhaps something else cheaper off the Brawler talent tree.

2 hours ago, Yaccarus said:

Another option if you want more XP would be to replace Deadly Accuracy with a less valuable ability, such as Feral Strength, or perhaps something else cheaper off the Brawler talent tree.

Yeah, I was just thinking of the ability itself as a Feral Strength 5. That and the training Brawn to 3 are just too true to the concept/original design for me to not include it.