9 hours ago, CountBlah said:

@Caimheul1313 I expect the second bit on licensing is accurate. This likely started as a discussion on Legion but licensing terms caused the decision on what moved or not. FFG is likely still able to create Star Wars board games. But that doesn't exactly excite me, as X-Wing shouldn't be an after thought in this type of decision making.

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Just to clarify, FFG have never been able to release "board games" for Star Wars wierdly , they have released other games that had components similar to board games and nearly got into a legal battle with the company that does have the board game license (Hasbro). There was an issue over Imperial Assault because it, allegedly, came too close to being a board game, since then I don't think any new Imperial Assault products have been developed.

20 minutes ago, syrath said:

Just to clarify, FFG have never been able to release "board games" for Star Wars wierdly , they have released other games that had components similar to board games and nearly got into a legal battle with the company that does have the board game license (Hasbro). There was an issue over Imperial Assault because it, allegedly, came too close to being a board game, since then I don't think any new Imperial Assault products have been developed.

I would call that a boardgame.

The battle with Hasbro seems to be long over.

2 hours ago, KaLeu said:

I would call that a boardgame.

The battle with Hasbro seems to be long over.

I know., so does Outer Rim, however I dont know what the outcome of the disagreement was.

Also Rebellion was out before the disagreement over IA, though Outet Rim wasnt

15 hours ago, Jedirev said:

I think the key questions immediately are around

1) The RRG update. Will this be released via FFG, and will the update see us through the likely blackout during transition?

2) Announced and leaked releases. Will the development pipeline be affected - I.e. will team members be transitioning from FFG, or will development balance be affected by changes in the team?

3) Most importantly from my perspective - implications for English language stock in Europe. Will we get restock?

So in the cold light if day, these ARE the important questions for the community.

1) Will there be an RRG Update if FFG have let the dev team go?

2) With a transition to a different team, will the game balance - an essential component for OP (about which there are now serious questions) - be sustained, or are we talking a (soft or otherwise) relaunch?

3) What about stock levels?

12 minutes ago, Jedirev said:

So in the cold light if day, these ARE the important questions for the community.

1) Will there be an RRG Update if FFG have let the dev team go?

2) With a transition to a different team, will the game balance - an essential component for OP (about which there are now serious questions) - be sustained, or are we talking a (soft or otherwise) relaunch?

3) What about stock levels?

1. Almost certainly, as at minimum the latest one was already written.

2. Too soon to tell, though I find it unlikely that there will be a relaunch. I’d be more worried about OP support in general, not as much the game balance (mcp has dropped some errata for balancing before based on their webpage). The lack of experience they have with tournaments or store kits has me apprehensive.

3. Also too soon to tell, but from what I’ve heard MCP hasn’t had nearly the same issues. But, players don’t need to buy multiples of those expansions so could still be a learning curve for them.

1 hour ago, Jedirev said:

1) Will there be an RRG Update if FFG have let the dev team go?

2) With a transition to a different team, will the game balance - an essential component for OP (about which there are now serious questions) - be sustained, or are we talking a (soft or otherwise) relaunch?

3) What about stock levels?

I would hate to have to let anyone go in this environment and never wish for someone to be fired, but I really question the previous teams ability to balance since the game units have been out of balance since release. There doesn't need to be RRG updates (that are as massive or frequent) if the game is released with balance.

My experience with MCP has been quite opposite than that of Legion. I've always had access to any of their products at any time. They've released 50+ different boxes in under a year (compared to Legion that can barely release 10-15),

Every figure is playable from release (no DOA) and the amount of errata is kept to 2 pages.

The game isn't perfect, but it does capture the "feel" and "theme" of the medium.

My hope is that AMG can rub off on Legion and correct some of the stuff that we see pages of complaints about on this very forum. Hopefully they can at least borrow some of the AMG boats that move faster, don't have drunken captains or leaks in the bottom of the boat.

For what it's worth, my thinking is that this is different, and therefore wrong. New company, new members of the design team, likely a new direction for the game. No thanks. I guess only time will tell.

5 hours ago, syrath said:

Just to clarify, FFG have never been able to release "board games" for Star Wars wierdly , they have released other games that had components similar to board games and nearly got into a legal battle with the company that does have the board game license (Hasbro). There was an issue over Imperial Assault because it, allegedly, came too close to being a board game, since then I don't think any new Imperial Assault products have been developed.

According to this: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2154596/ffg-hasbro-star-wars-license and some posts here: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/239185-has-ffg-lost-their-license-for-imperial-assault/ FFG made an agreement with Hasbro to allow for domestic distribution.
It is also possible for multiple companies to have the same kind of license simultaneously. Multiple companies have been making GW property video games for instance. It's only when a company has an exclusive license (which is a different, more expensive kind of license) that no one else can do anything even remotely related. EA as far as I know has an exclusive license for Star Wars video games internationally. I know for a fact Hasbro only has the license in the US as Lego has previous made board games with the Star Wars License. I was able to get it in the states via family in Europe.

So it's likely FFG got the international license, then worked out an agreement with Hasbro to allow for domestic distribution and sales.

14 minutes ago, buckero0 said:

My experience with MCP has been quite opposite than that of Legion. I've always had access to any of their products at any time. They've released 50+ different boxes in under a year (compared to Legion that can barely release 10-15),

Every figure is playable from release (no DOA) and the amount of errata is kept to 2 pages.

My point stands though: you never need to buy multiples of the same sku for MCP. In legion it can be anywhere from 1 to 6, depending on the unit and the level of interest generated.

I also argue that the only reason people call legion units DOA is they’re doing my competitive number crunching that doesn’t seem to happen in MCP. Also, terrain makes an enormous difference for good or bad in legion

13 minutes ago, buckero0 said:

There doesn't need to be RRG updates (that are as massive or frequent) if the game is released with balance.

I disagree. The RRG updates are two fold: adding new rules that come with new releases and fixing stuff. Apart form admittedly two large overhauls of Line of Sight rules, fixes are marginal compared to new stuff. I actually believe Legion to be pretty balanced game, with only two hiccups in terms of balance - the first being Tauntauns, and the second being undetected powerspike of standby tokens with clone trooper subtype introduction. As per units that are unplayable, as the word about them goes, just give them a try in skirmish format Also, not everytyhing has to be tournament viable to have a place in a game.

13 minutes ago, buckero0 said:

My experience with MCP has been quite opposite than that of Legion. I've always had access to any of their products at any time. They've released 50+ different boxes in under a year (compared to Legion that can barely release 10-15),

As multiple others stated here before, MCP releases are that of in-game unique models. This lowers the demand, compared to say Shoretroopers, which everyone wanted to have 3 of, immediately.

13 minutes ago, buckero0 said:

the amount of errata is kept to 2 pages.

So was Legion's at a similar time after release.

13 minutes ago, buckero0 said:

Hopefully they can at least borrow some of the AMG boats that move faster, don't have drunken captains or leaks in the bottom of the boat.

Those are all Asmodee boats

7 hours ago, Tirion said:

<Removing unwise comment>

10 minutes ago, Shanturin said:

Those are all Asmodee boats

Most of my posts are tongue and cheek or should be taken with a grain of salt.

I would challenge anyone who says MCP isn't designed to be hard-core competitive. I've seen just as many efficiency experts and Net-lists / Meta-harpies go at it (online for the most part) with MCP as with Legion or X-wing or any game. Everything can be made ultra competitive or be played casual.

16 minutes ago, ScummyRebel said:

My point stands though: you never need to buy multiples of the same sku for MCP. In legion it can be anywhere from 1 to 6, depending on the unit and the level of interest generated.

I also argue that the only reason people call legion units DOA is they’re doing my competitive number crunching that doesn’t seem to happen in MCP. Also, terrain makes an enormous difference for good or bad in legion

Why do I have multiples of the same sku for MCP? Multiple people playing in the same house, need for certain tactic cards, custom models, etc (I get where you're coming from, but would also say I've never seen MCP scalped for 3 times its going rate and the Local Store always seems to get more MCP than Legion, "I can order more" is what the store owner says)

My point is, the Legion player doesn't NEED 4-6 copies of anything, they may want it, but you don't need it.

Terrain can make a huge difference in both games.

I get what you're saying, I'm saying that MCP still doesn't have the supply issues (I haven't seen them yet) that Legion does, and I don't think its all because everyone is buying 14 copies of Padme or Rex (which were also sold out and hard to get for several months.

MAYBE THEY WILL HAVE THOSE PROBLEMS NOW THAT THEY'VE INHERITED LEGION

33 minutes ago, buckero0 said:

I would hate to have to let anyone go in this environment and never wish for someone to be fired, but I really question the previous teams ability to balance since the game units have been out of balance since release. There doesn't need to be RRG updates (that are as massive or frequent) if the game is released with balance.

My experience with MCP has been quite opposite than that of Legion. I've always had access to any of their products at any time. They've released 50+ different boxes in under a year (compared to Legion that can barely release 10-15),

Every figure is playable from release (no DOA) and the amount of errata is kept to 2 pages.

The game isn't perfect, but it does capture the "feel" and "theme" of the medium.

My hope is that AMG can rub off on Legion and correct some of the stuff that we see pages of complaints about on this very forum. Hopefully they can at least borrow some of the AMG boats that move faster, don't have drunken captains or leaks in the bottom of the boat.

For Legion, the boxes that I have mostly seen going out of stock are the units, of which people are buying 3+, less so the characters which are being sold in similar quantities to MCP at 1. The other potential reason for Legion having a slower turn around time is the Star Wars license approval team taking longer to give approval than the Marvel team. MCP is also probably easier to approve since each box is a single character in a single pose. For Legion, we've got 7 models in a box, with the potential of being able to combine the parts in different ways. Not to mention the times that FFG has to dig deep to find an appropriate weapon for a unit, balancing canon and fun. MCP doesn't have to worry about a rocket launcher or anything, they don't represent all of the powers on the model.

People have declared MCP stuff as either DOA, unplayable, etc, but MCP isn't being marketed as a competitive wargame. It is very much a casual small skirmish game, which means balance is often a bit more shaky, since it is expected local groups will police themselves. More people are buying what models they want than paying nearly as much attention to the meta.
As I said above, the other potential issue is that AMG now has FOUR games to handle up from ONE. Just because they handled one game fairly well doesn't mean they can handle four.

Distribution is still handled by Asmodee, which is to blame for the boats. ASoIaF has had very similar issues to Legion, with Asmodee suddenly delaying all of the releases that were due this week.

1 minute ago, Caimheul1313 said:

People have declared MCP stuff as either DOA, unplayable, etc, but MCP isn't being marketed as a competitive wargame. It is very much a casual small skirmish game, which means balance is often a bit more shaky, since it is expected local groups will police themselves. More people are buying what models they want than paying nearly as much attention to the meta.
As I said above, the other potential issue is that AMG now has FOUR games to handle up from ONE. Just because they handled one game fairly well doesn't mean they can handle four.

Honestly, like with most things, when you combine two individual groups, there's going to be some good and some bad that come out of the deal, hopefully they keep making all the game fun and available for those that want them. I've enjoyed all 4 of those games at different times, so I wish success for all of them.

1 minute ago, buckero0 said:

Honestly, like with most things, when you combine two individual groups, there's going to be some good and some bad that come out of the deal, hopefully they keep making all the game fun and available for those that want them. I've enjoyed all 4 of those games at different times, so I wish success for all of them.

At the end of the day, I 100% agree with this.
The only thing we know for certain is that things WILL change either as a direct result of this move, or just by the nature of game development in general.
Since none of us are likely to have any insider information, all we are really doing is speculating, which while a decent way to pass the time (so long as we all remain civil) has little to no bearing on what the nature of the changes will be.

31 minutes ago, buckero0 said:

My point is, the Legion player doesn't NEED 4-6 copies of anything, they may want it, but you don't need it.

I get what you're saying, I'm saying that MCP still doesn't have the supply issues (I haven't seen them yet) that Legion does, and I don't think its all because everyone is buying 14 copies of Padme or Rex (which were also sold out and hard to get for several months.

Well if we are going with that definition of need; nobody needs anything because it’s a luxury to play with miniatures.

As for shortages in legion - it’s almost always been for units you can take multiple of. I had no trouble locating Rex once he arrived a bit late. I haven’t picked up Padme but she’s been sitting at my LGS ever since release day.

Folks are buying multiples of trooper units though, and that extra demand is something a bit unprecedented for AMG, where most of their clients are buying 0-1 of each sku. Multiple trooper buys in legion are far more common.

I personally have been impressed with the quality of MCP and re organizing could be positive change. I gotta think this will delay things some though as it takes time to re-org.

My worry is that to increase sales we are going to invalidate all the old content with power creep, pseudo x wing 2.0 or even worse repurchase situations, etc. So instead of being additive it is repetitive.

33 minutes ago, Uetur said:

My worry is that to increase sales we are going to invalidate all the old content with power creep, pseudo x wing 2.0 or even worse repurchase situations, etc. So instead of being additive it is repetitive.

If Alex and Luke are still on board I personally wouldn't be worried about this. But if Alex is indeed gone and Luke is indeed potentially gone, this I think is a huge concern.

15 minutes ago, Lochlan said:

If Alex and Luke are still on board I personally wouldn't be worried about this. But if Alex is indeed gone and Luke is indeed potentially gone, this I think is a huge concern.

This, moving the product to another company probably wont be that big a deal. But if they got rid of the two main developers thats another issue entirely.

One thing that gives me a little hope in this trying time is that some of the lead designers over at AMG are well known names in the industry. Will Pagani and Will Schick designed Warmachine and Hordes by Privateer Press for many years before leaving to start their own company when the company started to restrict and order what they could and couldn't do, which lead to the game starting to take. Their work was pretty decent (I played Warmachine for about 8 years and it was my favorite till I discovered legion) and they at least know what they're doing and how to run a competitive game scene. I hope that we see a return of Alex Davy to the AMG staff and that Luke gets transferred over as well.

51 minutes ago, Lochlan said:

If Alex and Luke are still on board I personally wouldn't be worried about this. But if Alex is indeed gone and Luke is indeed potentially gone, this I think is a huge concern.

34 minutes ago, KarlVonCarstein said:

This, moving the product to another company probably wont be that big a deal. But if they got rid of the two main developers thats another issue entirely.

So I might be missing the reasoning behind the worry.

As much as I appreciate the work Alex and Luke have done so far, if the design team is actually changing, aren't the bones of the game well established enough for others to carry it on? The game will have something close to 60-80 different pre established units to draw precedent from. It's not like these teams, which have worked on miniature games successfully before are trying to recreate Alex's vision in a vacuum. They have a ton of stuff to guide them already.

Will things change in a noticeable way on the end user side? Maybe, but really with everything that's already been designed I think we may not even see a notable change.


I hope the rumors that the reason Alex and Luke were laid off from FFG was to join AMG are true, but even if they aren't I don't think we should expect a huge variance in game mechanics.

Ninja'd by PikminToo!

So, for some history on Atomic Mass Games, the lead folks over there, all came from Privateer Press. Will Shick was a lead designer for Warmachine and Hordes. When Atomic Mass Games was started, quite a few of the other designers headed over as well. I know Will Pagani joined him. If you peel back the last two years of Atomic Mass Games, you will see Privateer Press underneath it.

The discussion here is on Marvel Crisis Protocol, a brand new game. But understand, Legion is now going to be in the hands of the people that drove Warmachine and Hordes for a decade.

My personal thoughts on that, is it is a great thing. I love Warmachine and Hordes. From a competitive standpoint, it is still one of the cleanest games out there in terms of rule sets. The rules are concise, and focused. They have a system where official rules decisions are made and posted on the forums that answer corner case scenarios. It helps keep things clean and neat.

I have no doubt that this is a great thing.

32 minutes ago, KarlVonCarstein said:

This, moving the product to another company probably wont be that big a deal. But if they got rid of the two main developers thats another issue entirely.

Yeah, I was ambivalent about the announcement until I heard about Alex getting canned. If Luke is gone too... Might be time to get out while the gettin's good

10 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

As much as I appreciate the work Alex and Luke have done so far, if the design team is actually changing, aren't the bones of the game well established enough for others to carry it on? The game will have something close to 60-80 different pre established units to draw precedent from. It's not like these teams, which have worked on miniature games successfully before are trying to recreate Alex's vision in a vacuum. They have a ton of stuff to guide them already.

Yes, a new team could easily continue along the same lines as what Alex and Luke were doing. However, what if they decide they want to do things differently? A new team would likely have the freedom to make whatever changes they wanted to. Just look at the number of people in this very forum (yourself included) who have talked about how they would prefer if things were done differently in Legion. And that's all well and good, but I would hazard a guess that most of the people who play Legion like it the way it is, and aren't looking for drastic changes. And nobody wants to see power creep, but that is a thing I have seen many times when a game has changed development teams.

6 minutes ago, Lochlan said:

Yes, a new team could easily continue along the same lines as what Alex and Luke were doing. However, what if they decide they want to do things differently? A new team would likely have the freedom to make whatever changes they wanted to. Just look at the number of people in this very forum (yourself included) who have talked about how they would prefer if things were done differently in Legion. And that's all well and good, but I would hazard a guess that most of the people who play Legion like it the way it is, and aren't looking for drastic changes . And nobody wants to see power creep, but that is a thing I have seen many times when a game has changed development teams.

Then it's beyond our control. Personally I can't see why a company that owns a very successful IP would want to change anything, but if they do that's the way it is.


If that were really case why did we see a surge in players with the clone war factions? Even on the rebel and imp sides? Sure there's definitely the people who joined for the clone wars thematics, but we saw growth all around. Clones and droids changed a lot of the game, surges, clone and droid troopers. It was Major. The game is still great, better even. While it was part of the original design teams goal we have no reason to believe change wouldn't do this game a lot of good too.


I suspect if there is any noticeable change we'll have the usual kneejerk, "I don't like change" we always do but when it comes down to it these people aren't amateurs like me, their stuff will work. (Let's also keep in mind, I'm not a game designer. My ideas were not shaped by decades of games development experience. They're just ideas I, the average tabletop player, had.)