Naboo Handmaidens down 6 or something - really there's no excuse for them being 9 points more than the I2 generic, Decoyed requires too much work to keep relevant in a game, and at the expense of having say, Plasma Torps.

2 hours ago, Rossetti1828 said:

Naboo Handmaidens down 6 or something - really there's no excuse for them being 9 points more than the I2 generic, Decoyed requires too much work to keep relevant in a game, and at the expense of having say, Plasma Torps.

I can agree that they are too expensive, but that's almost assuredly entirely because of Padme's ability, which with their ability becomes super obnoxious..

2 hours ago, Rossetti1828 said:

Naboo Handmaidens down 6 or something - really there's no excuse for them being 9 points more than the I2 generic, Decoyed requires too much work to keep relevant in a game, and at the expense of having say, Plasma Torps.

I'll get behind this buff. Handmaidens to Bravo + 2. Bodyguard ships can be theoretically annoying, but with the movement restrictions of N-1s, I doubt it'd be too much of a problem, and if it was, just nerf them again!

I wouldn't hate to see Bravo costs go down... They compare pretty unfavorably to RZ-1s, who already compare unfavorably to TIE/v1s.

1. Rebel
   1. Go up: Generic Wookiees. Named can come down a bit
   2. Go down: A-Wings
2. Empire
   1. Go up: Baron of the Empire up 1 point. Crazy cheap compared to other generics
   2. Go down: Thur Phennir, Tie Advanced X1's except Vader
3. Scum
   1. Go up: Slave1 up to 8+
   2. Go down: Kihraxz all down, Named Mining Ties not Seevor bit down
4. Resistance
   1. Go up: Zizi, Merl Coben and the new named I3
   2. Go down: Most named X-Wings
5. First Order
   1. Go up: Agent Terrex upgrade
   2. Go down: Generic Xi Shuttle
6. Republic
   1. Go up: Nothing
   2. Go down: All N1's not Ric or Ani
7. Separatist
   1. Go up: ???
   2. Go down: ???
8. Generic Upgrades
   1. Go up: ???
   2. Go down: Cluster Mines

Scum

1. Go up: Moldy Crow title(but HWK-290 down), Boba Fett, Cartel Spacer, Zealous Recruit
2. Go down: named Z-95 Headhunters, Moralo Eval, Prince Xizor, Dalan Oberos, Scurrg H-6 Bombers(except Nym), named Mining Guild TIE Fighters(except Seevor), Kimogilas, Sabine Wren, named Kihraxz Fighters, HWK-290s, Joy Rekkoff, Kad Solus, IG-2000 title, Feedback Array, Inertial Dampeners on I1-4

13 hours ago, Rossetti1828 said:

Naboo Handmaidens down 6 or something - really there's no excuse for them being 9 points more than the I2 generic, Decoyed requires too much work to keep relevant in a game, and at the expense of having say, Plasma Torps.

THIS.

Naboo Handmaidens down a lot. Padme down a few.

A few Named Y wings probably could come down 1-2.

====

Generic spam is still too prevalent and boring. I think the chassis are priced fine generally, and its great to have generics be good, but right now they're too good without enough differentiation. Therefore, we need more critical upgrades that diversify the choices of generics and how they fly.

In a vacuum, currently I think Xwing's can come down 1 point. Cavern to 38, I2 to 39.

Bwings down to I2=40. Both of these ships desperately need upgrades for better reasons to take them. We can't balance the game and its diversity simply on points alone.

I think it is time for something a little more radical Why not address the overall power-creep that has taken place. In the original game of X-wing (1.0), the power-level was envisioned around letting 8 generic I1 TIE fighters be the baseline of power for a list. They were each 12pt summing up to 96pt in a 100pt game, so if you wanted e.g. Howlrunner and a bunch of generics you could only fly 7 TIE fighters. In 2.0 being a 200pt game, that would correspond to 24pt for the I1 Academy Pilot generic TIE fighter, while its actual current cost is 22pt.

I suggest we raise the price of ALL pilots AND ALL upgrades by 9.1% and round to the nearest natural number.

On the face of it, you might think this accomplices nothing, but it profoundly does, there will be much less "beef" on the table, meaning games will be faster. A less amount of ships also makes more space on the table for maneuvering which is good as this is a game where maneuvering is an important part of the game. 1pt agility ships including most large-based ships will stand a greater chance of surviving the swarm onslaught which is also good as they naturally counter aces.

36 minutes ago, Sciencius said:

I think it is time for something a little more radical Why not address the overall power-creep that has taken place. In the original game of X-wing (1.0), the power-level was envisioned around letting 8 generic I1 TIE fighters be the baseline of power for a list. They were each 12pt summing up to 96pt in a 100pt game, so if you wanted e.g. Howlrunner and a bunch of generics you could only fly 7 TIE fighters. In 2.0 being a 200pt game, that would correspond to 24pt for the I1 Academy Pilot generic TIE fighter, while its actual current cost is 22pt.

I suggest we raise the price of ALL pilots AND ALL upgrades by 9.1% and round to the nearest natural number.

On the face of it, you might think this accomplices nothing, but it profoundly does, there will be much less "beef" on the table, meaning games will be faster. A less amount of ships also makes more space on the table for maneuvering which is good as this is a game where maneuvering is an important part of the game. 1pt agility ships including most large-based ships will stand a greater chance of surviving the swarm onslaught which is also good as they naturally counter aces.

heyyy, not a bad idea to try 😃

I do honestly think though that some measure of bulk, like 5X feels right.

I think I really like that idea. Would have to go through very carefully in terms of rounding up or down but I think you're right that the standard TIE should go back to 25 and everything else get adjusted to fit that price.

1 hour ago, Sciencius said:

I think it is time for something a little more radical Why not address the overall power-creep that has taken place. In the original game of X-wing (1.0), the power-level was envisioned around letting 8 generic I1 TIE fighters be the baseline of power for a list. They were each 12pt summing up to 96pt in a 100pt game, so if you wanted e.g. Howlrunner and a bunch of generics you could only fly 7 TIE fighters. In 2.0 being a 200pt game, that would correspond to 24pt for the I1 Academy Pilot generic TIE fighter, while its actual current cost is 22pt.

I suggest we raise the price of ALL pilots AND ALL upgrades by 9.1% and round to the nearest natural number.

On the face of it, you might think this accomplices nothing, but it profoundly does, there will be much less "beef" on the table, meaning games will be faster. A less amount of ships also makes more space on the table for maneuvering which is good as this is a game where maneuvering is an important part of the game. 1pt agility ships including most large-based ships will stand a greater chance of surviving the swarm onslaught which is also good as they naturally counter aces.

I don't think this specifically is a good idea, but one thought I had was bringing all 'mid grade' pilots down to near generic levels to help counter the 'spam and aces' problem. That way you are super heavily encouraged to lose a ship in order to get abilities to form a strategy, rather than just throw raw stats at people's faces. Basically deliberately push the 'mid range named' pilots that don't see play well under-value to be pseudo-generic, but unspammable. You only fly a generic to absolutely shave off a point or two, or because you ran out of named pilots.

I know some people really love spam though, and there are other ways to try to handle the stat based efficiency spam (For example, just lower the price of upgrades overall so more of the game's power is concentrated there, so even generic swarms will want upgrades).

Any broad change though definitely can't be off the cuff. It isn't just a points philosophy change at that point, but a points 'rework.'

2 hours ago, Sciencius said:

I think it is time for something a little more radical Why not address the overall power-creep that has taken place. In the original game of X-wing (1.0), the power-level was envisioned around letting 8 generic I1 TIE fighters be the baseline of power for a list. They were each 12pt summing up to 96pt in a 100pt game, so if you wanted e.g. Howlrunner and a bunch of generics you could only fly 7 TIE fighters. In 2.0 being a 200pt game, that would correspond to 24pt for the I1 Academy Pilot generic TIE fighter, while its actual current cost is 22pt.

I suggest we raise the price of ALL pilots AND ALL upgrades by 9.1% and round to the nearest natural number.

On the face of it, you might think this accomplices nothing, but it profoundly does, there will be much less "beef" on the table, meaning games will be faster. A less amount of ships also makes more space on the table for maneuvering which is good as this is a game where maneuvering is an important part of the game. 1pt agility ships including most large-based ships will stand a greater chance of surviving the swarm onslaught which is also good as they naturally counter aces.

Some ships in 2.0 are 25-30% cheaper than their 1.0 counterpart while others are 0% cheaper or even (in some cases) more expensive.

A 10% increase across the board would in fact achieve almost nothing. You're not wrong about opening up space on the table but as you're also increasing the cost of ships able to take advantage of that space it's less likely to have an impact. The one change that would really matter is probably undesirable, which is that fewer ships = fewer shots = defensive token stacking and shield regeneration gets better, so more games involve aces just getting ahead on points and running away to the end of the round because as their ships are now more expensive they're better at being a points fortress.

I dont know if you wanted to play against a 140pt Supernatural Anakin Skywalker, but if you did then this is how you make that happen.

1 hour ago, Stay OT Leader said:

Some ships in 2.0 are 25-30% cheaper than their 1.0 counterpart while others are 0% cheaper or even (in some cases) more expensive.

A 10% increase across the board would in fact achieve almost nothing. You're not wrong about opening up space on the table but as you're also increasing the cost of ships able to take advantage of that space it's less likely to have an impact. The one change that would really matter is probably undesirable, which is that fewer ships = fewer shots = defensive token stacking and shield regeneration gets better, so more games involve aces just getting ahead on points and running away to the end of the round because as their ships are now more expensive they're better at being a points fortress.

I dont know if you wanted to play against a 140pt Supernatural Anakin Skywalker, but if you did then this is how you make that happen.

I know that the point costs of most ships in 2.0 do not in any ways correspond to the 1.0 pricepoint times a factor 2, and thank good for that, 1.0 was not particularly well balanced imho. Furthermore, several fundamental game mechanics have been changed going from 1.0 to 2.0 such as linked actions, charges etc.

I also disagree, that a 10% increase across the board would not achieve anything, for starters this game is at its heart a knap-sack problem or a discrete optimization problem, ie. the price of a TIE Defender being 66pt versus 67pt has a huge impact while the point difference of 65pt versus 66pt or 67pt versus 68pt much less so, as the 66pt versus 67pt difference in a 200pt game means the difference between 2 or 3 TIE Defenders. Where 2 TIE Defenders is a strong list but not unbeatable, I am sure most would find 3 TIE Defenders oppressive, eventhough it might actually not win any major tournaments, but simply be an NPE. I also dont know if I buy your premise regarding "fewer ships=fewer shots = defensive token stacking and shield regeneration gets better", as at the moment we have a 8 ship cap in standard tournament play, and those pilots fond of defensive token stacking and shield regeneration and the upgrades to assist with this, also get a 10% increase in price. I do acknowledge the amplification of the point fortress issue though, but to be honest is that not an enterily different issue which should be handled by different changes to the game?

Honestly, I think the best way to fix the Republic right now is to drop seventh fleet gunner to about 5-6 points. This upgrade could be a cornerstone for a lot of fun and interesting Republic strategies, but is just way too inefficient.

That 10% cost increase across the board is not gonna work. All it means is that swarms get worse, mid-initiative gets worse (because those types are able to bring fewer ships/upgrades), and 2- and 3-ship aces and heavy hitters like Fett get better, because they will only need to make marginal cuts to luxury upgrades which they’ll scarcely miss.

Then we have to listen to everyone ***** about how good aces are again. Let’s just not.

If you want a real points rework, it’s gotta be a real points rework from the ground up, not some ham-fisted cludge that involves flat percentages.

I’m inclined to sort of agree with @dezzmont : the mid-initiative uniques could come down significantly. This would give the game a sort of third pillar; it seems like right now we have rock and scissors, but not paper. And the factions who most rely on mid-initiative guys are the ones which seem weakest (Rebels and Republic, and to a lesser extent, Resistance). I’m not sure what would be so terrible about letting these so-called Beef lists be a thing again, though I wasn’t around for those days, so maybe it really sucked.

I DO know that Rebel A-Wings need to be cheaper, and/or they need to have something they do which RZ-2’s can’t do (even if that simply ends up being sweet new pilot abilities). We need more Rebel A-Wing pilots. And the T-65 needs help, and things IT can do that the T-70 doesn’t simply do better. All of those things have been very obvious for a very long time, and that needle hasn’t moved in forever.

I mean, how do you get to a place where the RZ-1 has four pilots, and the RZ-2 has twelve? If I were one of the game developers, this severe asymmetry would bug me.

Also, I really want to see Rey in Luke’s Red Five T-65 X-Wing as a Resistance ship. ‘Cause that would just be cool. And the Resistance in general just needs more frames. Rey’s T-65. The T-85. Resistance Y-Wing. Maybe the Resistance B-Wing (though the whole “Resistance is just Rebels with better ships and Advanced Optics” was not a great design decision, honestly, and I hate to simply see more of that, but that may just be what it is). The Ace Squadron ships. Just anything that makes sense. I love the Resistance as a faction, but they’re hurting for options, and FFG wasted an opportunity to help them out by just giving us more A-Wings and X-Wings in Heralds of Hope.

4 hours ago, Cpt ObVus said:

Rey’s T-65. The T-85.

Three different X-Wing chassis in one faction? That would get confusing, fast.

The T-85 could be made to look different enough to be easily recognizable, but I already have an issue telling apart the other two at a glance (especially if people were to custom-paint them, so you couldn't rely on canon colors to tell them apart). Splitting them apart was a good side-effect to splitting off the factions.

15 hours ago, dezzmont said:

One thought I had was bringing all 'mid grade' pilots down to near generic levels to help counter the 'spam and aces' problem. That way you are super heavily encouraged to lose a ship in order to get abilities to form a strategy, rather than just throw raw stats at people's faces. Basically deliberately push the 'mid range named' pilots that don't see play well under-value to be pseudo-generic, but unspammable. You only fly a generic to absolutely shave off a point or two, or because you ran out of named pilots.

Generalising the areas that need adjustment is problematic, since there are ships and pilots from all the archetypes who could use going up or down a touch, but still... as an idea on direction of change, this .

Addressing just the bottom end of the spectrum opens the board for aces again.

Putting everything up, opens the board for aces again.

Many generics are undercosted atm, but so are a number of premium pilots, still .

The last adjustment attempted to reign in the top end primarily by buffing the lower end. This was not the right answer to that problem.

That said, I do think the game is in a better state than at almost any point previously, but the last wave of adjustments changed things in ways that didn't really bring more balance. It just shifted it in a way that was a bit more wholesome and enjoyable than it was previously.

Next wave should hopefully build on that and actually bring some genuine balance and variety to the table.

7 hours ago, Cpt ObVus said:

I’m not sure what would be so terrible about letting these so-called Beef lists be a thing again, though I wasn’t around for those days, so maybe it really sucked.

There was a period of very specific Beef that really sucked.

Beef in general would be fine and has kinda of always been around and been fine .

If incredibly boring

4 hours ago, Matanui3 said:

Three different X-Wing chassis in one faction? That would get confusing, fast.

The T-85 could be made to look different enough to be easily recognizable, but I already have an issue telling apart the other two at a glance (especially if people were to custom-paint them, so you couldn't rely on canon colors to tell them apart). Splitting them apart was a good side-effect to splitting off the factions.

Eh, confuse me. The Resistance is hurting for ships, and the Empire & First Order have approximately 4,000 slightly different TIE models. I can deal with a T-85, a T-65, and a T-70 on the table all at once. Besides, what’s the alternative? 4-5 RZ-2 A-Wings with identical models and different names? THAT gets confusing!

2 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

There was a period of very specific Beef that really sucked.

Beef in general would be fine and has kinda of always been around and been fine .

If incredibly boring

I guess my point is: I like all the factions. I want all of them to be good, even GREAT, at something. They don’t have to all be the best at everything they do, but all of them should be competitive in a couple different areas... and I’m not sure the Rebels have that right now. Even more frustrating is that they have obvious, open holes in their faction that need filling and would be an easy fill. In fact, I have at least two different T-65 and two different RZ-1 pilots in my head right now that just need some interesting game text, and they could be printed tomorrow, and start helping the faction. It doesn’t have to be Beef-centric. Maybe they shouldn’t be. But instead it seems more important that we get “unique Resistance RZ-2 pilots #9-#12.”

I don’t understand.

I wonder.... with the latest news, who of FFG and AMG will release the points for the newest ETA-2, V-Wing, Trifighters and Sep's Firesprays ???

They better settle thins in the next days !

This is all speculation but I don't think we will see a points update this month. Restructuring and firings tend to shake things up. The people that where handling points updates at FFG might not even be working at the company or transferred over to AMG.

If it happens I will be pleasantly surprised.

17 minutes ago, IceManHG said:

This is all speculation but I don't think we will see a points update this month. Restructuring and firings tend to shake things up. The people that where handling points updates at FFG might not even be working at the company or transferred over to AMG.

If it happens I will be pleasantly surprised.

I think it will, but without other changes. Since it's a release of FFG, they "have" to give the players what they need to play with what they are bringing to the market.

I think, but I am really not sure about it

I don't think this move was a surprise to anyone at either company. I also think this points change was ready a month ago or more. If we don't get a points update this month I will eat a 1.0 Dash Rendar alt art pilot card.

Just now, gamblertuba said:

I don't think this move was a surprise to anyone at either company. I also think this points change was ready a month ago or more. If we don't get a points update this month I will eat a 1.0 Dash Rendar alt art pilot card.

Do not let me or anyone else forget this.

2 minutes ago, Npmartian said:

Do not let me or anyone else forget this.

I've got one somewhere I think. It was hideous.