I think we've had similar types of threads before, but I can't emphasize enough how diverse and plentiful this faction could become without much imagination.

**Corps

Hired Guns (modelled by Weequay, Rodians, Grans, etc) cheapish, short range 1-2 troops Wdefense Boffense, Gain a dodge and surge token with a command

Sand People (longer range weapons, low profile, regenerate 1 to simulate more troopers coming out of the woodwork/dunes)

**Special Forces

Mandalorian fighters

Hardened Gangsters (commando/strike equivalents)

Gammorrean Guards (3 wounds, VibroAxes, Guardian 1)

Lots of options here

**Support

Jet-bike racers

Hover turret cannons

Bantha Riders

**Heavy

Speeders,

Small Skiff tanks

**Commanders

Hondo Ohnaka

Jabba the Hutt

Dryden Voss

Maul

**Operatives I think they should price these appropriately, but allow more than two, to simulate hiring of bounty hunters, nefarious warriors on the payroll

Mandolorian

Boba Fett

Bossk

IG series droids

Embo / Aurra Sing

Assajj

Zuckuss/4Lom

My one thing is I view the Sand People as very much separate, acting in their own interest on Tatooine alone without really "siding" with anyone who can't be bothered to learn their trade language.

"Hired guns" I think can be further broken down into pirates which would be range 1-2 and armed more for shipboard engagements, and "hired guns" with the range 1-3. You could also include a " criminal enforcer" unit as part of the corps options.

Another Heavy option that you left off but I think could be interesting is the Rancor.

I like the idea of a scum faction. I just hope if they go that route they find a way to keep it thematic.

Like, each scum commander and operative came with a (or multiple) keywords like "Scum: X" where X is the related factions that unit works with. Part of the faction identity would be you can only bring units matching the identity keywords on your commander and operative units. It would help keep lists within the realm of possibility.

So if Hondo were a leader unit, he'd get Scum: Pirates , Jabba the Hutt would have Scum: Crime Syndicates


Characters like Maul or the Mandalorian who have a wider variety or relationships with different factions would have more keywords.


My worry without some way to explain different scum sub factions would be "How?"

Why would Tusken Raiders be teaming up with Pirates or Jawas with Mandos without the presence of a leader who united them?

In a game where Emperor Palpatine repairs Moisture Vaporators on a Felucia table while fighting off Padme's shots from a E5 rifle she stole from a B1 Battle droid - I fail to see why the lack of scum sub-factions would be the thing that breaks immersion.

I think people wildly overestimate the differences between the criminal organizations. They all use hired guns as basic troops. Whether you call them pirates, mercs or scum makes little difference since they are all just an assortment of random species with various equipment. The actual number of visual or thematically distinct troops (like Pyke Guards) is rather low. And I don't see that many people complain about Snowtrooper and Dewbacks being played in the same army although it makes no sense thematically.

The other obvious answer to the question of "Why are the teaming up?" is the same as "Why are they committing crimes?" Money.

4 minutes ago, Decarior said:

In a game where Emperor Palpatine repairs Moisture Vaporators on a Felucia table while fighting off Padme's shots from a E5 rifle she stole from a B1 Battle droid - I fail to see why the lack of scum sub-factions would be the thing that breaks immersion.

I think people wildly overestimate the differences between the criminal organizations. They all use hired guns as basic troops. Whether you call them pirates, mercs or scum makes little difference since they are all just an assortment of random species with various equipment. The actual number of visual or thematically distinct troops (like Pyke Guards) is rather low. And I don't see that many people complain about Snowtrooper and Dewbacks being played in the same army although it makes no sense thematically.

To be clear, your point is:

Some stuff kind of doesn't make sense, so instead of organizing the best way possible to prevent more of that, lets just go HAM and make an entire faction make no sense.


?

I suppose in the long run it doesn't matter, but it's an odd stance to take.

3 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

To be clear, your point is:
Some stuff kind of doesn't make sense, so instead of organizing the best way possible to prevent more of that, lets just go HAM and make an entire faction make no sense.

No. Read my post. The main point is:

11 minutes ago, Decarior said:

I think people wildly overestimate the differences between the criminal organizations. They all use hired guns as basic troops. Whether you call them pirates, mercs or scum makes little difference since they are all just an assortment of random species with various equipment. The actual number of visual or thematically distinct troops (like Pyke Guards) is rather low.

7 minutes ago, Decarior said:

No. Read my post. The main point is:

I would disagree quite a lot with that.

Tusken raiders, Jawas, Pykes, Hutts, Black Sun, Mandalorians, and Pirates do look quite different, and they definitely have different motives.




don't equate to:



which don't equate to:




All to say, politely, I disagree. I think they should put the effort in to explain why these scum factions are on the board together and not at odds, which quite often they are. I think the easiest way to do this is through leader units like I stated above.

The units at the Corps level could be more generic though, representing newer recruits or hired thugs. I could see tying the leader to specific Special Forces though, or making certain Special Forces count for say the required Corps choices.

As much as would like to have stuff like Banthas, Sand People, and Jawas, they feel a bit niche to me, and we don't really see them teaming up too often outside their own kind, it's the exception when they do, not the rule. Unlike say Wookiee or Gungans, who we see fighting alongside other species/groups more frequently.

There is a very simple reason the factions would work together which we are shown in the Clone Wars cartoon, and even Rebels: money, or to be able to stand up against a more powerful foe.

7 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

money, or to be able to stand up against a more powerful foe.

If we're going by the show though, you'll notice that these factions are usually at odds until character X and character Y join forces. Without X and Y you're looking at a full army of various scum units that make little sense fighting in a coordinated battle. lol

I’d be more likely to support them if their were certain units that couldn’t interact together.

Think sort of like 40k with the imperium of man. At the end of the day anyone on “earth’s” team can come, but the good stuff is more limited.

I would have the hired guns and smugglers corps type units be universally usable, but some of the SF or support requiring a specific commander subfaction theme. That way you don’t go completely nuts with the mixing but the low end stuff that’s largely the same can stay that way.

16 minutes ago, ScummyRebel said:

I’d be more likely to support them if their were certain units that couldn’t interact together.

Think sort of like 40k with the imperium of man. At the end of the day anyone on “earth’s” team can come, but the good stuff is more limited.

I would have the hired guns and smugglers corps type units be universally usable, but some of the SF or support requiring a specific commander subfaction theme. That way you don’t go completely nuts with the mixing but the low end stuff that’s largely the same can stay that way.

That's a fair middleground.

32 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

If we're going by the show though, you'll notice that these factions are usually at odds until character X and character Y join forces. Without X and Y you're looking at a full army of various scum units that make little sense fighting in a coordinated battle. lol

Yes, but sometimes "character X" is just a named version of an otherwise generic instance of that type of unit. The field bosses for many of the criminal factions are sometimes noteworthy only for being a particular species.

I think instead of you needing say one commander to use SF related to them, they most likely will have synergy with each other. And i will say if they make a scum faction i will use mandos and jawas.

For the longest time I was against a Scum faction because of the Boba Fett problem. Boba Fett sometimes worked for the Imperials and sometimes did his own thing. He should be totally available to both factions but what happens is when a SCUM faction comes out Boba Fett morphs into a much stronger version of himself and then is only available to the SCUM faction. I always though this hurt the health of the game because now you can't play say Boba and Vader. As a game design you can sell way more Boba Fetts if he can fit in way more lists.

Another issue is Scum runs out of popular characters pretty quickly and we run into releases who support is a little bit of screen time, a little bit of comics or other material. Luke can support like 3 to 4 version of just one character for instance. I have never gotten the sense they are big sellers as an entire faction.

However I think you could split the difference with some new mechanics. Scum commanders who can takes units from multiple factions. That way you get the flavor of a Scum faction but you don't fragment you game across too many factions. Clones wars gear was usually pretty available so maybe Jabba is aligned with Imperials but can sub in Clone of CIS vehicles and things like that.

@Uetur The "Boba Fett problem" is easily solved the same way as with R2: it's the exact same unit. It isn't like Boba Fett has any specific synergies with the Empire faction preventing just porting him over via some special rule allowing the use of any Operative with the "Bounty" keyword.

As for Scum running out of popular characters: Empire and CIS have been dealing with that same problem... So I don't see how that is particularly new.

31 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

@Uetur The "Boba Fett problem" is easily solved the same way as with R2: it's the exact same unit. It isn't like Boba Fett has any specific synergies with the Empire faction preventing just porting him over via some special rule allowing the use of any Operative with the "Bounty" keyword.

As for Scum running out of popular characters: Empire and CIS have been dealing with that same problem... So I don't see how that is particularly new.

If they were to do a scum faction starter set, since it wouldn't be a 2 faction box they could add a lot more into it. Including Bossk and Boba if they want, new sculpts same unit cards and command cards, just with the new faction symbol. Or when they add a certain Commander, like Jabba, he comes with a new keyword that lets him hire Operatives from other factions, something like "Hired - Boba Fett, Bossk and Cad Bane". The Hired keyword would work little like tempted, it lets you take things your faction normally can't but to avoid people trying to take Operative Luke in the scum faction, the character with the keyword specifies specifically which characters he can hire for this mission.

2 hours ago, Decarior said:

I think people wildly overestimate the differences between the criminal organizations. They all use hired guns as basic troops. Whether you call them pirates, mercs or scum makes little difference since they are all just an assortment of random species with various equipment. The actual number of visual or thematically distinct troops (like Pyke Guards) is rather low. And I don't see that many people complain about Snowtrooper and Dewbacks being played in the same army although it makes no sense thematically.

If FFG goes the subfaction route, I expect the basic troops (Corp and Support) will indeed be hired guns who can work for any faction. The visually and thematically distinct troops that get the faction restrictions would typically fill the Commander and Special Forces ranks. Operatives and Heavies might end up with a mix. For example, Qi'ra works specifically for Crimson Dawn while independent bounty hunters like IG-88 might work for anybody. Likewise, the Rancor might be used exclusively by the Hutt Cartel, while a generic pirate vessel could be used by anybody.

I imagine FFG could create a full-sized starter to jump-start the faction. The starter could include two different Corp units (x2), two different Support units (x1) and two opposing Commanders from different subfactions. This product would help Scum catch up to existing factions by introducing a larger variety of units, while still allowing two players to play a mini-game straight out of the box.

2 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

@Uetur The "Boba Fett problem" is easily solved the same way as with R2: it's the exact same unit. It isn't like Boba Fett has any specific synergies with the Empire faction preventing just porting him over via some special rule allowing the use of any Operative with the "Bounty" keyword.

As for Scum running out of popular characters: Empire and CIS have been dealing with that same problem... So I don't see how that is particularly new.

I disagree that the Empire and CIS are dealing with the same problem a SCUM faction would have in running out of known names. There are two reasons for this IMO.

1. The Empire and CIS are consistent pure organizational threats where as a SCUM faction is a collection of individual threats who are usually a one shot. For instance you can have an Empire character who themselves appeared in say 4 or less episodes of something that is supported by the Empire itself being in inumerous content. So every Empire release gets that sorta stamp. SCUM never really gets that, they are effectively side missions in the context of greater threats. They arent the major players of the clones wars or galactic civil war, etc.

2. We haven't touched based on current release schedules at least 12 to 18 months of CIS characters, let alone Empire. This is just based upon movies, look at the battle of Gebosha, there is an A lister and a B lister missing from the CIS, Phantom Menace is missing a B lister and Darth Sidious is missing. That's 4 before I even get to other content.

@Uetur So Maul and the Shadow collective are "side missions?" I'd dare say they constitute a fairly major player in the clone wars. Same with the Hutts who show up repeatedly.
For that matter, there is not need to be a "major player" to be included in a miniature game with such small battle sizes and zero campaign system. Effectively every game constitutes the equivalent to a "side mission."
So your argument is "while criminal characters often show up for a similar number of episodes/amount of focus in media as a any member of the Empire/CIS it doesn't matter because the faction isn't big enough?"
Again, that doesn't matter, we aren't playing at a huge army scale, we aren't playing linked games where you have to track which faction has won control of a planet. Otherwise, the Rebels shouldn't be fielding nearly as many units as the Empire in any given engagement, and armies shouldn't be an equal number of points.

Look at what has been added for Empire and CIS: Veers, a character who gets less than 30 minutes of screen time in a single battle, Iden/Inferno squad from a single player mode of a video game/supplemental media, and Maul who actively fought against the CIS and was never actually part of the formal organization. So yes, they do have a similar issue, because despite the Empire/CIS being such a big threat, their characters are not NEARLY as well known to people who don't consume supplemental media.
Jabba the Hutt, Maul, Bobba Fett, Bossk, Dryden Vos, Qi'ra, Tobias Beckett, the Mandalorian, IG-11, Greef Karga, and Cara Dune are all characters from the films/live action TV show alone that could be added, without delving into the cartoons which are not as widely consumed among adult fans of Star Wars.

1 hour ago, Caimheul1313 said:

@Uetur So Maul and the Shadow collective are "side missions?" I'd dare say they constitute a fairly major player in the clone wars. Same with the Hutts who show up repeatedly.
For that matter, there is not need to be a "major player" to be included in a miniature game with such small battle sizes and zero campaign system. Effectively every game constitutes the equivalent to a "side mission."
So your argument is "while criminal characters often show up for a similar number of episodes/amount of focus in media as a any member of the Empire/CIS it doesn't matter because the faction isn't big enough?"
Again, that doesn't matter, we aren't playing at a huge army scale, we aren't playing linked games where you have to track which faction has won control of a planet. Otherwise, the Rebels shouldn't be fielding nearly as many units as the Empire in any given engagement, and armies shouldn't be an equal number of points.

Look at what has been added for Empire and CIS: Veers, a character who gets less than 30 minutes of screen time in a single battle, Iden/Inferno squad from a single player mode of a video game/supplemental media, and Maul who actively fought against the CIS and was never actually part of the formal organization. So yes, they do have a similar issue, because despite the Empire/CIS being such a big threat, their characters are not NEARLY as well known to people who don't consume supplemental media.
Jabba the Hutt, Maul, Bobba Fett, Bossk, Dryden Vos, Qi'ra, Tobias Beckett, the Mandalorian, IG-11, Greef Karga, and Cara Dune are all characters from the films/live action TV show alone that could be added, without delving into the cartoons which are not as widely consumed among adult fans of Star Wars.

We are at an impasse which is fine. but the Shadow Collective is clearly a side mission to the Clone Wars. An entertaining one but a Side Mission none the less. Maul however himself is a major player and is currently in Legion but the Maul I remember best was the one who was in the Phantom Menace all of a sudden popping a second lightsaber blade and throwing down with Quigon and Obi Wan. That is why he became CIS and it was the right call.

Veers and Iden get the part of the Empire stamp. In fact Veers I would argue is more well known than any of the scum people you listed except for Jabba, Bobba and Maul. I bet you, you could put up a picture of Veers next to Dryden Voss and ask people to name them and it wouldn't even be close. The original trilogy per capita are some of the most watched movies of all time at a time when there we less entertainment options.

@Uetur Put up Iden and Voss in model form side by side and I bet more people would be able to at least tell you what film Voss is from, without being able to tell you where Iden is from. More so for for Voss vs Kallus. Veers people might recognize as being in a film, but may not remember his name. Maul to me is more memorable from the cartoons, when he has actual speaking lines and isn't just a voiceless minion of Palpatine.

I say again, the Empire and CIS has a similar issue of having relative few character from the films that are usable for the game, which is why taking Maul makes sense for marketing, since he is the only other film character shown with even a remote combat link to the CIS. And why the Empire is adding Kallus in this wave as opposed to... Who exactly COULD they even add from the films at this point that anyone would identify? With Kallus and Iden, at least people who watched Rebels/played Battlefront 2s single player can identify them, as opposed to say, Colonel Dyer. Those same people are also likely to know and love many more scum characters, despite only showing up for a handful of episodes.

As for the game itself, it only involves 30-50 models to a side, roughly a reinforced platoon, with an objective suitable for any number of "side missions" from the cartoons (capture supplies, sabotage, etc). So a faction big enough for a side missions is plenty big enough for the game, they don't need to be able to field armies of 1000+ soldiers at a time, since that isn't the scale this game is played at. If X-Wing can support a scum faction, Legion should not have any issue either.

I like the conversations going on here.

Bar known, Scum has way more named characters and footprint in the canon and non-canon than the Empire or CIS put together.

16 minutes ago, buckero0 said:

I like the conversations going on here.

Bar known, Scum has way more named characters and footprint in the canon and non-canon than the Empire or CIS put together.

I'm just checking, but by non-canon you mean the old EU, not the current comics/cartoons/etc right? I'm just making sure we're on the same page.

The easiest way to do this faction is to give each commander an affinity with certain units.

E.g. A mando character is good with mando units, jabba is good with his house guards and gangsters etc.

This way they can throw all these cool units into one faction, but we will see 'themed' lists because players will want to play mostly units that work with their commanders.

Scum and Mercs is just an easy way to get a lot of minor factions into the game, in a way that mostly makes sense.