49 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Did GM Phil write the book? No . He’s the host of the pod cast. He’s making an interpretation of what he thinks it means. He’s not one of the writers, he’s not a member of the FFG staff nor a developer. I’m also just listening to the podcast, and they don’t even begin talking talents until well after the 37 minute mark. It isn’t until deep in to the 38 minute mark he makes his claim.
However that is not what the rule itself says . It says that you remove the boost dice before you roll and you add the symbols to the result of the roll. You can’t add symbols to a result until you have a result to begin with .

If you add a success after removing the dice you'll have a succes to begin with. Then you can add the rest to it.

You are right. Every other talent does that. No precedent of it. However, there is no precedent to remove a dice in exchange to a symbol either. So it does not prove either way. It means it's new which could mean that it has a different interpretation, otherwise wouldn't make sense to create it with different text.

I accept that you don't agree with me. I'll wait for official confirmation whether it is that way or the other. Until then, we can both have it our way.

1 hour ago, Rimsen said:

If you add a success after removing the dice you'll have a succes to begin with. Then you can add the rest to it.

You are right. Every other talent does that. No precedent of it. However, there is no precedent to remove a dice in exchange to a symbol either. So it does not prove either way. It means it's new which could mean that it has a different interpretation, otherwise wouldn't make sense to create it with different text.

I accept that you don't agree with me. I'll wait for official confirmation whether it is that way or the other. Until then, we can both have it our way.

Yes, there is. There are several. The only difference is they add a predetermined one, as is the case with Improved Shortcut. Instead of adding boost dice to your piloting check dice pool, you add Successes to the result of the roll. Thus, you are removing the boost dice you get from the base Shortcut talent and add Successes to the result of the roll instead.

Once again you add or remove dice from the pool before rolling, you add symbols to the result of the check after. It doesn’t matter where the additional symbols come from. In every talent that allows you to add Successes/ Advantages in whatever combination, you always add them to the result of the check. You always add them after rolling.

Clanker Killer also says you add the Successes/Advantages to the result of the check. This is the same thing that Intuitive Strike, Intuitive Shot, and Mission Critical, among others, all say. You add any combination of Successes and Advantages to the result of the check. That means you roll the check then add your Successes and/or Advsntages in whatever combination you choose based upon what you need as a result of the roll . That is how all of these talents work. You choose what symbols to add once you know what symbols are lacking.

Improved Shortcut is actually entirely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. All it does is allow you to suffer 2 Strain to add Success equal to ranks to the check. It doesn't remove any Boost dice.

It also doesn't state whether it is activated before or after the dice are rolled.

As for Intuitive Strike, Intuitive Shot, and Mission Critical, the first two are contingent on dice rolled in the check, and so have no bearing on the conversation. Mission Critical is also entirely irrelevant since it does something completely different.

Alright, for the sake of argument I'll grant your premise that when it says "to the results" it means that you decide which symbols after the dice have been rolled (though I disagree, I think it's a distinction without a difference).

Then there was a mistake made in the talent description, and here's the Occam's razor question:

Did they accidentally swap "to the results" for "to the check."

Or

Did they horribly botch the description, messing up tenses and completely leaving out that the second half happens after the dice have been rolled? It is put together as a two-part action: Do X and Y. Not: Do X and then after Z happens, do Y.

Even if you are right and "to the results" is such an all-important difference, the simple solution is that they accidentally used the wrong term since the two are so similar.

2 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Improved Shortcut is actually entirely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. All it does is allow you to suffer 2 Strain to add Success equal to ranks to the check. It doesn't remove any Boost dice.

It also doesn't state whether it is activated before or after the dice are rolled.

As for Intuitive Strike, Intuitive Shot, and Mission Critical, the first two are contingent on dice rolled in the check, and so have no bearing on the conversation. Mission Critical is also entirely irrelevant since it does something completely different.

Alright, for the sake of argument I'll grant your premise that when it says "to the results" it means that you decide which symbols after the dice have been rolled (though I disagree, I think it's a distinction without a difference).

Then there was a mistake made in the talent description, and here's the Occam's razor question:

Did they accidentally swap "to the results" for "to the check."

Or

Did they horribly botch the description, messing up tenses and completely leaving out that the second half happens after the dice have been rolled? It is put together as a two-part action: Do X and Y. Not: Do X and then after Z happens, do Y.

Even if you are right and "to the results" is such an all-important difference, the simple solution is that they accidentally used the wrong term since the two are so similar.

It doesn’t need to remove boost dice. That’s not the precedent in question. The precedent set in the rules as a whole is that added Successes and/or Advantages are always added after the roll is made because they are added to the result of the check . They are not added to the dice pool. So yes, Improved Shortcut is relevant. Also, yes, you are removing boost dice. Specifically, you are removing the Boost dice you would have gotten from the base Shortcut talent . The Shortcut talent specifically says, “During a chase, the character adds Boost dice per rank in Shortcut to his checks made to catch or escape an opponent.” The Improved Shortcut instead adds Successes equal to his ranks in Shortcut to the check at the cost of 2 Strain; no Boost dice are added. Thus, you removed the boost dice in exchange for Successes.

As for your assertion that they left out “after the roll” from the added Successes and Advantages to the result. That wasn’t necessary. The very fact that the talent says that the Successes and/or Advantages are added to the results of the check makes it explicit that this is done after the roll. You need to have results before you can add to them. In order to get results on a check you first need to roll the check. That is basic logic. This is also consistent with Mission Critical, Intuitive Shot, Intuitive Strike, and other talents which allow you to add any combination of Successes and Advantages to the results of a check . In every one of these talents, the Successes/Advantages are added after you roll because they are added to the results , not to the initial dice pool . You don’t add Successes or Advantages to the dice pool before rolling; you add them after rolling. You add them to the results of a check, and this is explicitly what Clanker Killer also says. You add any combination of Successes or Advantages (equal to the number of Boost dice you initially removed) to the result of your check. That explicitly means you add them after you roll, not before. You remove the Boost dice before the roll, but you add the Successes and/or Advantages after you roll. That is how it works with every such talent where you add or remove dice and/or add Successes/Advantages. You add/ remove dice from the pool before rolling and you add or remove symbols from the results of a roll, thus after you roll. You can’t add Successes or Advantages to the results of a roll until you actually have results. Therefore you can’t add them until you roll the dice in order to get that initial result . You’re too hung up on the preamble of the talent. That is only clarifying when you remove the Boost dice . And really, it is an unnecessary addition.

This appears to be a very heated thread. I won't pretend to have read more than the first page before saving myself the posturing.

Intentionally parsing the rule text incorrectly to achieve the result you wish is not good gaming. With the Clanker Killer talent you remove up to your ranks in boost die from the pool, choose whether they represent a one success or one advantage result on said boost die, then roll the remainder pool for the final results.

It's not worth three pages of discussion, it's quite clear. Now you may WANT to choose what each boost die represented after the pool is rolled, but that is gaming the dice pool results. Eat your failure with "n" success or success with "n" advatage. Move on.

57 minutes ago, Fistofpaper said:

This appears to be a very heated thread. I won't pretend to have read more than the first page before saving myself the posturing.

Intentionally parsing the rule text incorrectly to achieve the result you wish is not good gaming. With the Clanker Killer talent you remove up to your ranks in boost die from the pool, choose whether they represent a one success or one advantage result on said boost die, then roll the remainder pool for the final results.

It's not worth three pages of discussion, it's quite clear. Now you may WANT to choose what each boost die represented after the pool is rolled, but that is gaming the dice pool results. Eat your failure with "n" success or success with "n" advatage. Move on.

Here here.

This got waaaaay out of hand.

Tramp assessed Clanker Killer, and he is correct.

Grammatically, the "[comma] and" joins two separate statements together into one sentence.

Tramp assessed Clanker Killer. He is correct.

Before rolling a combat check that targets a droid (including a droid vehicle or a vehicle piloted by a droid), the character may remove [boost dice] up to their ranks in Clanker Killer from the pool. Add an equal number of [successes] or [advantages] (in any combination] to the results.

11 hours ago, RLogue177 said:

Tramp assessed Clanker Killer, and he is correct.

Grammatically, the "[comma] and" joins two separate statements together into one sentence.

Tramp assessed Clanker Killer. He is correct.

Before rolling a combat check that targets a droid (including a droid vehicle or a vehicle piloted by a droid), the character may remove [boost dice] up to their ranks in Clanker Killer from the pool. Add an equal number of [successes] or [advantages] (in any combination] to the results.

He is not correct, it is an errant comma. Based on the opinion of a professional editor who deals with these sorts of problems on a regular basis, the comma is errant and was likely included because the sentence seemed too long. As someone who overuses commas, I think this makes sense. It is the sort of mistake I would have made.

Your rephrasing changes the meaning of the sentence in such a way that it (mostly) validates the conclusion. However, it changes the meaning. "Before X, do Y and Z" is how the description is phrased.

Quote

The "before" clause modifies the entire rest of the sentence. "Before rolling a combat check, the character may remove Boost and add equal Success."
They have an erroneous comma in there, but the sentence is so long they might have thought it was necessary even though technically it isn't.
The only reason there's any doubt about the "before" clause is because of that comma.
But since there is no subject noun following the comma, no actor given, the actor for "add Success/Advantage" is the same as the actor for "remove Boost." That makes them equivalent in the sentence, which means the clause that modifies "remove Boost" also modifies "add Success/Advantage": "before rolling a combat check" comes before both actions.

13 hours ago, RLogue177 said:

Tramp assessed Clanker Killer, and he is correct.

Grammatically, the "[comma] and" joins two separate statements together into one sentence.

Wrong.

For it to read the way that Tramp interprets it would need to be "; Add", not ", and add". The first is an example of two conjoined statements, the second is an errant comma.

Just when you thought it was safe to return to the forum....

8 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

He is not correct, it is an errant comma. Based on the opinion of a professional editor who deals with these sorts of problems on a regular basis, the comma is errant and was likely included because the sentence seemed too long. As someone who overuses commas, I think this makes sense. It is the sort of mistake I would have made.

Your rephrasing changes the meaning of the sentence in such a way that it (mostly) validates the conclusion. However, it changes the meaning. "Before X, do Y and Z" is how the description is phrased.

No, before you do X, you do Y, then you add Z to the result of X. You cannot add Z to the result of X until you do X. Therefore, Y comes before X, but Z comes after X.

6 hours ago, Fistofpaper said:

Wrong.

For it to read the way that Tramp interprets it would need to be "; Add", not ", and add". The first is an example of two conjoined statements, the second is an errant comma.

It is two conjoined statements. It isn’t an errant comma. No matter how you read it, the Successes and advantages are added to the result of the roll, not to the dice pool. Ergo, you roll the dice before adding any Success or Advantage.

I'm not getting dragged in to your continued delusions about which hill you've chosen to die on.

Run your game how you want, but don't be surprised when this talent is interpreted contrary to what you believe when you are playing (not GM'ing), and definitely don't try your "argument" out at the table.

2 hours ago, RickInVA said:

Just when you thought it was safe to return to the forum....

My bad. I'd taken a few months off from the tabletop RPGs due to an increased workload and came back to two+ pages of new post replies. I chose a few per day so as to not flood with responses and couldn't be quiet with the, albeit well-intentioned, misinformation in this one.

It falls really to whether it's correct to choose the effect post-roll. Intention is quite clear, and those arguing to choose the effect afterwards are more concerned with gaming the results instead of what is correct.

On 12/22/2020 at 9:53 PM, Fistofpaper said:

I'm not getting dragged in to your continued delusions about which hill you've chosen to die on.

Run your game how you want, but don't be surprised when this talent is interpreted contrary to what you believe when you are playing (not GM'ing), and definitely don't try your "argument" out at the table.

The rule explicitly states that you add the Successes at Advantages in to the results of the roll. This is consistent with several other talents which also add Successes and/or Advantages to rolls. They all add them after the roll is made because you need to have a result before you can add to it. That means you need to roll the dice after removing the Boost dice but before adding any Successes or Advantages. So whether you add Successes or Advantages (or any combination thereof) you make that choice after the roll, when you know what you need. This is how every talent that adds your choice of Successes or Advantages, regardless of what the source of those Successes or Advantages is.