On Clanker Killer talent:

"Before rolling a combat check that targets a droid (including a droid vehicle or a vehicle piloted by a droid), the character may remove Boost up to their ranks in Clanker Killer from the pool, and add an equal number of successes or advantages (in any combination) to the results."

Do you add the success or advantages after rolling the dice pool, or before, as it isn't stated?

In the same book, Mission Critical explicitly states that the successes and advantages are added after rolling a check but before resolving, making it clear, which is leading me to suggest it is before rolling a check.

But you could argue that the results don't exist, and you can't add to them, until the dice are rolled (you'd be adding successes or advantages to the dice pool otherwise).

Clearly adding after rolling is more powerful, but given force enhanced skills do that all the time, I don't have a major issue with this as the GM. I'm leaning towards that interpretation (I also like skills that give flexibility to the player in interpreting the dice pool), but would appreciate clarity if there is any I have overlooked.

With Mission Critical, it prefaces the talent by saying "After rolling a check, but..." whereas Clanker Killer prefaces the talent by saying "Before rolling a combat check..."

Basically, the "Before" clause applies to the entire action. Before you make the check, you remove dice and add results. Then you roll the check and take what you get.

I disagree. You remove boosts “before rolling” and add successes and/or advantages “to the results’, meaning to the dice roll results. You don’t have results until you roll the dice. So, you can choose success/advantage after you see the dice roll. Removing the boosts comes before. Adding success/advantage comes after.

The word from a professional editor regarding the grammatical structure of the description:

The "before" clause modifies the entire rest of the sentence. "Before rolling a combat check, the character may remove Boost and add equal Success."
They have an erroneous comma in there, but the sentence is so long they might have thought it was necessary even though technically it isn't.
The only reason there's any doubt about the "before" clause is because of that comma.
But since there is no subject noun following the comma, no actor given, the actor for "add Success/Advantage" is the same as the actor for "remove Boost." That makes them equivalent in the sentence, which means the clause that modifies "remove Boost" also modifies "add Success/Advantage": "before rolling a combat check" comes before both actions.

5 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

The word from a professional editor regarding the grammatical structure of the description:

The "before" clause modifies the entire rest of the sentence. "Before rolling a combat check, the character may remove Boost and add equal Success."
They have an erroneous comma in there, but the sentence is so long they might have thought it was necessary even though technically it isn't.
The only reason there's any doubt about the "before" clause is because of that comma.
But since there is no subject noun following the comma, no actor given, the actor for "add Success/Advantage" is the same as the actor for "remove Boost." That makes them equivalent in the sentence, which means the clause that modifies "remove Boost" also modifies "add Success/Advantage": "before rolling a combat check" comes before both actions.

I'm sure you are correct from an English Language perspective. I don't ever presume that the author of anything is using perfect English, as probably no one does. In this case I think it can easily be read either way. If I had to adjudicate, I would apply The Law of Contracts and interpret it in favor of the non writing party, in this case the player, and let them apply before or after at their choice.

And I support the use of the Oxford comma! 😜

11 minutes ago, RickInVA said:

I'm sure you are correct from an English Language perspective. I don't ever presume that the author of anything is using perfect English, as probably no one does. In this case I think it can easily be read either way. If I had to adjudicate, I would apply The Law of Contracts and interpret it in favor of the non writing party, in this case the player, and let them apply before or after at their choice.

And I support the use of the Oxford comma! 😜

This isn't so much a "perfect English language" issue, more a matter of "what does it actually say." (Besides, I don't even use perfect grammar. I drastically overuse commas.)

Based on the sentence structure, it cannot be read the other way. If the person writing the rule intended for the character to add the symbols after the roll, they should (and would) have said so. If that's what they intended, this is a significant failure in communication as it says exactly the other thing.

Based on what we have for comparison, the structure of the sentence,* and the nature of the talent, I believe it is as it seems. It is also worth noting that I have only encountered this talent as a player or fellow player, so I am not withholding anything from my players as a GM. You have to change the rule, not just look at it from another angle, in order to read it as allowing the player to choose after the roll.

Can you make a case that RAI is different than RAW here? Yes, but I disagree. It would have been very easy to add an additional clause to clarify if you were supposed to choose the symbols after you roll. I've submitted a dev question, but am not optimistic about getting a response given the situation.

As for the comparisons to abilities like Enhanced Leader or Enhance, those dice are rolled as part of the pool and generate resources to be spent. Clanker Killer removes dice from the pool before they are rolled. They aren't parallels.

*Note the Oxford comma. I am a stickler for it as well.

On 10/28/2020 at 7:03 PM, Darzil said:

On Clanker Killer talent:

"Before rolling a combat check that targets a droid (including a droid vehicle or a vehicle piloted by a droid), the character may remove Boost up to their ranks in Clanker Killer from the pool, and add an equal number of successes or advantages (in any combination) to the results."

Do you add the success or advantages after rolling the dice pool, or before, as it isn't stated?

In the same book, Mission Critical explicitly states that the successes and advantages are added after rolling a check but before resolving, making it clear, which is leading me to suggest it is before rolling a check.

But you could argue that the results don't exist, and you can't add to them, until the dice are rolled (you'd be adding successes or advantages to the dice pool otherwise).

Clearly adding after rolling is more powerful, but given force enhanced skills do that all the time, I don't have a major issue with this as the GM. I'm leaning towards that interpretation (I also like skills that give flexibility to the player in interpreting the dice pool), but would appreciate clarity if there is any I have overlooked.

It seems pretty clear that Clanker Killer requires those boost dice are removed before you roll, since it specifically says "before" in the part about rolling the combat check. To try and interpret it otherwise is being a munchkin.

I'd say that with any talent that requires one to trade off dice (such as removing boost dice) in order to add an effect to a result, the dice removal occurs before you know what the dice results are; otherwise, one could easily just remove any boost dice that came up blank and instead convert them to success/advantage.

I agree, the question was about whether results are added before or after rolling the dice pool, not about when boost dice should be removed (which is clearly whilst it is a dice pool, so before it rolls and becomes results).

42 minutes ago, Darzil said:

I agree, the question was about whether results are added before or after rolling the dice pool, not about when boost dice should be removed (which is clearly whilst it is a dice pool, so before it rolls and becomes results).

In that vein, I'd treat it as the results being added after the dice are rolled, and are then factored into the final result, and meaning that any failure/threat symbols on the dice can counter the success/advantage gained from sacrificing the boost dice.

3 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

In that vein, I'd treat it as the results being added after the dice are rolled, and are then factored into the final result, and meaning that any failure/threat symbols on the dice can counter the success/advantage gained from sacrificing the boost dice.

Yes, but the question is if you choose which symbols to add before or after you've rolled the dice. I'm in the before camp, as that's what the talent says.

1 hour ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Yes, but the question is if you choose which symbols to add before or after you've rolled the dice. I'm in the before camp, as that's what the talent says.

Every talent or Force power which adds Successes or Advantages applies them after the roll. That is the precedent . No talent requires you to choose between added Successes or added Advantages before rolling. You do have to chose to swap the dice first however. The reason for this is simple: if your base roll has no net Successes, or has net failures, you can add Successes to the roll in order to succeed at the task. If the base roll is already successful, you can instead add Advantages to the roll to get narrative boons. That is the whole point of talents like this.

4 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Every talent or Force power which adds Successes or Advantages applies them after the roll. That is the precedent . No talent requires you to choose between added Successes or added Advantages before rolling. You do have to chose to swap the dice first however. The reason for this is simple: if your base roll has no net Successes, or has net failures, you can add Successes to the roll in order to succeed at the task. If the base roll is already successful, you can instead add Advantages to the roll to get narrative boons. That is the whole point of talents like this.

Yet that is not at all what the talent says. It specifically states that it's before the roll.

That may be the precedent for Force Talents, but Clanker Killer isn't a Force Talent.

The whole text indicates that you remove Boost dice up to ranks in Clanker Killer and replace them with your choice of 1 Success or 1 Advantage per Boost die removed in any combination before rolling.

Otherwise it would say something like remove the Boost dice before rolling, and then add Success or Advantage after the roll.

I'm not sure why there's any confusion with this talent.

Also each Talent, unless it specifically references another Talent , is a modification of the base rules of the game. Only the Talent itself (and any it directly references) should be used to adjudicate how a Talent is intended to function. Using the mechanics of Talent A to justify a ruling on Talent B is not a valid argument.

Just glanced through the Force Talents in the F&D CRB. I didn't notice any that said, "Remove 'X' from the pool...".

They say, "Roll Force Dice up to your Force Rating... spend those results before resolving the effects of Success/Failure..."

The Force Dice are part of the dice pool, and the Talents state specifically when and for what the results may be spent to achieve.

Totally different.

1 hour ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Yet that is not at all what the talent says. It specifically states that it's before the roll.

You choose whether to swap out the dice before the roll. You choose what symbol you want after the roll. Otherwise you might choose the wrong symbol. The point of talents like this is to choose the symbol you need most rather than relying upon luck. Clanker Killer isn’t the only talent that allows you to swap out Boost dice for a choice between Successes or Advantages, there are others. All work on the same premise. You choose to swap the dice first, roll, then make the choice to add Successes or Advantage depending upon what’s most useful as a result of the roll. So, for example, I choose to swap out boost dice on a given check, for the symbol of my choice, then I roll. If the roll comes up with net Successes but one or more net Threats, I can choose to add Advantages to counter those Threats, or, if I need Successess in order to succeed, but have plenty of Advantages, I can add Successes. That is what makes these talents useful. By contrast, if I had to choose between Successes or Advantages first, I could end up with no Advantages to counter any rolled Threats, or not enough Successes to succeed, but an excess of Advantages. The point of these talents is to allow you to choose the symbols you need when you need it .

15 minutes ago, salamar_dree said:

Just glanced through the Force Talents in the F&D CRB. I didn't notice any that said, "Remove 'X' from the pool...".

They say, "Roll Force Dice up to your Force Rating... spend those results before resolving the effects of Success/Failure..."

The Force Dice are part of the dice pool, and the Talents state specifically when and for what the results may be spent to achieve.

Totally different.

It’s the precedent for all talents which allow you To swap dice for Successes or Advantages. That is what makes them useful. It is the ability to choose Successes or Advantages depending upon what you need rather than relying upon luck. If you’re forced to choose between the Successes or Advantages before rolling, only to not need what you chose, then those symbols are essentially wasted. Force talents spend LSPs or DSPs on Successes or Advantages. Other talents swap out dice. In every case the choice between added Successes or added Advantages takes place after the roll but before effects are applied, but the choice to swap out Boost dice takes place before the dice are rolled.

1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

It’s the precedent for all talents which allow you To swap dice for Successes or Advantages. That is what makes them useful. It is the ability to choose Successes or Advantages depending upon what you need rather than relying upon luck. If you’re forced to choose between the Successes or Advantages before rolling, only to not need what you chose, then those symbols are essentially wasted. Force talents spend LSPs or DSPs on Successes or Advantages. Other talents swap out dice. In every case the choice between added Successes or added Advantages takes place after the roll but before effects are applied, but the choice to swap out Boost dice takes place before the dice are rolled.

Please give me the full text of talents that allows you to remove dice from the pool and then add symbols. (You can't use Clanker Killer, of course)

I will when I have access to my books. I’m at work.

Order 66 Podcast Episode 130, minutes 35 to 37 minutes in discusses Clanker Killer. GM Phil specifically mentions that the choice is made before the roll.

I'm going to re-listen to Episode 126 to see if they answer it definitively in that episode.

Nope. Just mentioned in Episode 130, but GM Phil was very specific, and GM Chris agreed with his interpretation.

Assigning a Boost to either Success or Advantage is a big benefit, when 1/3rd of the rolls will come up blank.

You sacrifice the 1/6 Success+Advantage and the 1/6 Advantage+Advantage to eliminate those blanks.

I really don't see a reason why you'd need to make the decision after rolling. Typically, you'll know what you want beforehand (extra Success for damage or extra Advantage for triggering special qualities).

4 minutes ago, salamar_dree said:

I really don't see a reason why you'd need to make the decision after rolling. Typically, you'll know what you want beforehand (extra Success for damage or extra Advantage for triggering special qualities).

If you want a bunch of Advantage (which is often the case), you still need Success. If you use Clanker Killer 2 and put both into Advantage, and then you roll 1 net failure with 7 net Advantage (before Clanker Killer), you are going to be facepalming. When using Auto-Fire or Dual-Wielding, Advantage is your friend.

If you just want to increase your success, then it's pretty straightforward. Just grab max Success since Advantage/Threat doesn't affect your Success.

True.

12 hours ago, salamar_dree said:

Order 66 Podcast Episode 130, minutes 35 to 37 minutes in discusses Clanker Killer. GM Phil specifically mentions that the choice is made before the roll.

I'm going to re-listen to Episode 126 to see if they answer it definitively in that episode.

The choice to swap out the dice is made before the roll. No one disputes that. However, even the wording of the talent says that the additional Successes or Advantages to the result . The result isn’t determined until after the roll. So you remove the dice before the roll then add your choice of symbols (in any combination) to the result after the roll. This is because you need to know the result to know what symbols to add based upon what you need. Every talent which adds additional Successes or Advantages ( regardless of where they come from) add them to the result of a roll, they don’t get added before the roll. You choose to swap out the Boost dice before the roll, you choose what combination of Success and Advantage symbols you want to add to the result after the roll.

@Tramp Graphics

You were going to give examples of other Talents that do the same thing (remove dice before, choose results after) as your proof.

I couldn't find any, myself. As far as I can tell, Clanker Killer is unique.

You could be right, but I don't feel the wording supports it. I asked a freelancer who worked on the book (but not the talents, so his opinion is not an official ruling), and he agrees that the Success/Advantage is added at the time that the Boost dice are removed. This is from a professional game designer.

I do feel that they could have worded the talent better.

I did fire off a rules question about it to FFG, but whether or not they answer is a big "?" as they don't have an RPG department anymore.