Existing Vassal Families

By TheHobgoblyn, in Lore Discussion

I looked through the L5R wiki and, eliminating all vassal families formed after 1110, here is the list of vassal families that I think exist within the setting-- assuming everything carries over. Have I missed any or are there any on this list that I should have removed but missed?

I think it would be nice to be able to give stats to all the vassal families to greatly expand the player options. If anyone wants to get started on their favorite clan as we sort out the list, it would be a good start.

Crab
Endo?
Fundai
Ishi
Kakeguchi
Kano
Kenru?
Koebi
Maisuna
Meishozo
Moshibaru
Nobuto
Raikuto
Takumi
Ugawari

Crane
Ashidaka
Fujihiro?
Hanamofu
Hiramachi
Hiramori
Iwasaki
Junichi
Katogama
Morehei
Tsume

Dragon
Atsumaru
Chiyu?
Hiasobi?
Izaku?
Kobori
Kouken
Remiki?
Sakura?
Seiyu
Zurui

Lion
Damasu?
Goseki
Hayameru
Hosokawa
Ichime
Ikeda
Ise
Itagawa?
Kaeru?
Katai
Koritome
Murame?
Noroko?
Seizuka?

Phoenix
Chukan
Iga
Koganshi?
Nani
Nasu
Sesai
Shingon?
Sodona

Scorpion
Aotora
Jitsuyoteki?
Kochako
Kuriyama
Naganori?
Nanbu
Rokugo
Sentaki
Tansaku
Tokagure
Ugawa

Unicorn
Bakudo
Battue
Ganzu
Hateru
Kenshin?
Kijuro?
Marta
Naoko
Onshigawa
Shiko?
Suio
Ujin
Zeshi

Imperial
Anou
Hanako
Hyuga
Reju
Satoshi?
Tsi
Yoshun*?
Yotsu?

Mantis
Chirichi?
Gusai?
Hogosha?
Hoji?
Watanabe?

Badger
Fureheshu
Tashimi?

Fox
Byakko
Shudo?

Sparrow
Edakumi

Tortoise
Hyobe
Someisa

Hare
Ujina

Centipede
Goriaku?

Bat
Iongi?

Wasp
Kagehisa?
Suguru?

Dragonfly
Koshei
Senkensha

Edited by TheHobgoblyn

I think it's okay for an Ashidaka (who are vassals of the Kakita, for instance) just take the bonus from the Kakita Family. Of course, the game considers that the players are actually members of the main family and clan (hence they start with 30 or 35 status) but you could, of course, start with a game where everyone is from vassal family and starting with 20-25 Status instead.

Allow me to point to this topic from (checks) 2 years ago:

There are a number that have been put in there already.

By-the-by, here are confirmed vassals, not counting anything from Celestial Realms onwards (I don't have it and haven't been able to update the census)

  • Hida no Kakeguchi, Hida no Takumi, Kaiu no Kenru, Kuni no Ugawari
  • Daidoji no Hanamofu, Daidoji no Hiramichi, Doji no Tsume, Kakita no Ashidaka, Kakita no Iwasaki
  • Agasha no Seiya, Mirumoto no Kobori, Mirumoto no Zurui
  • Akodo no Damasu, Ikoma no Hosokawa, Matsu no Goseki
  • Asako no Chukan, Shiba no Nasu, Shiba no Sesai
  • Bayushi no Aotora, Bayushi no Sentaki, Soshi no Kuriyama
  • Moto no Ujin, Shinjo no Bokudo, Shinjo no Ganzu
  • Otomo no Reju

At least one of these isn't formed by now in the old timeline, and some are entirely new.

1 hour ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

Allow me to point to this topic from (checks) 2 years ago:

There are a number that have been put in there already.

By-the-by, here are confirmed vassals, not counting anything from Celestial Realms onwards (I don't have it and haven't been able to update the census)

  • Hida no Kakeguchi, Hida no Takumi, Kaiu no Kenru, Kuni no Ugawari
  • Daidoji no Hanamofu, Daidoji no Hiramichi, Doji no Tsume, Kakita no Ashidaka, Kakita no Iwasaki
  • Agasha no Seiya, Mirumoto no Kobori, Mirumoto no Zurui
  • Akodo no Damasu, Ikoma no Hosokawa, Matsu no Goseki
  • Asako no Chukan, Shiba no Nasu, Shiba no Sesai
  • Bayushi no Aotora, Bayushi no Sentaki, Soshi no Kuriyama
  • Moto no Ujin, Shinjo no Bokudo, Shinjo no Ganzu
  • Otomo no Reju

At least one of these isn't formed by now in the old timeline, and some are entirely new.

I added them above. Actually 3-4 of them shouldn't exist yet as the circumstances in which they came to exist haven't happened and won't happen. Like Aotora was formed while the Scorpion were exiled to the Burning Sands.

What can we say about the new ones though? It is difficult to give them stats if I can't look up a wiki article to figure out what they are all about.

There is an Aotora NPC in Emerald Empire, so they must hve a different backstory now, for example.

It's mostly the Unicorn who are new, I think. The Ujin are a lesser family/tribe of Ujik who are technically vassals of the Moto, rather than being an independant group of nomads. The Ganzu don't even live in Rokugan - they are a Shinjo vassal that live in and look after a hidden valley on the Sand Road. The Bokuda show up as two brothers in the Unicorn novella that are kind of squire/stablehands to Shono, IIRC.

Not meaning to distract nor hijack the discussion, but I feel it is best asked here.

In the AEG canon, some of the Agasha defected to the Phoenix. Did any of their vassal families go with them? Or did the remaining Agasha who became Tamori consist of the vassals who refused to defect with the Agasha?

Phoenix Agasha, do they really exist or it was just an excuse for the Agasha to rebrand themselves? Sorry, just joking about the fact that I have never seen a Phoenix player or NPC from the Agasha family when the setting is set post defection.

1 hour ago, Diogo Salazar said:

Phoenix Agasha, do they really exist or it was just an excuse for the Agasha to rebrand themselves? Sorry, just joking about the fact that I have never seen a Phoenix player or NPC from the Agasha family when the setting is set post defection.

Fair point.

For my East meets West campaign world (Samurai vs. Knights Templar), the Jade Empire is loosely based on Rokugan, but sized up to China and set in the southern hemisphere with the clans effectively representing the vestiges of this world's equivalent of China's Seven Warring States period. Hentai Genji was a combination of Qin Shi Huang Di and Yongle Emperor Zhu Di, having united the disparate regional powers into a single unified country. I made the Phoenix clan have Tamori, Asako, Isawa, and Shiba. The Isawa are actually elves while the Shiba are true-breeding half-elves. Their lands extend into areas as far south as Sakhlan is north. Like the Phoenix Clan, the Cranes also have elves with the Doji being high elves and the Daidoji as half-elves. Dragon clan was Yoritomo, Minamoto (the two family founders being twin brothers) along side the Kistuski and Agasha. Rather than being in the north, their lands were just north of the capital (closer to the equator). They have much in common with the Hmong Hill tribes as well as the Tanka boat people of Hong Kong. In their place was the Crabs with the Hida and Kaiu being dwarves whom swore allegiance when Hentai Genji's armies originally intending to subjugate them instead assisted them against an Orc-Giant invasion. Instead of Lions, the Akodo form the vanguard of the Tiger clan and occupying most of the flat inland areas.

Anyhow, sorry for going off on a tangent. There is so much in this setting that is ripe for exporting into other campaigns. Why reinvent the wheel? Change a few of the origin stories and it is easy to incorporate into almost any other medieval setting.

8 hours ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

There is an Aotora NPC in Emerald Empire, so they must hve a different backstory now, for example.

It's mostly the Unicorn who are new, I think. The Ujin are a lesser family/tribe of Ujik who are technically vassals of the Moto, rather than being an independant group of nomads. The Ganzu don't even live in Rokugan - they are a Shinjo vassal that live in and look after a hidden valley on the Sand Road. The Bokuda show up as two brothers in the Unicorn novella that are kind of squire/stablehands to Shono, IIRC.

Things like this and the mention of the Bat Clan make me wonder if we should just treat most things that existed in the old canon up to the end as just existing if it conceivably could have come about earlier with a slightly altered origin.

Maybe I should just include all of the old vassal families even if they were formed after the starting date of the new setting.

1 hour ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

Things like this and the mention of the Bat Clan make me wonder if we should just treat most things that existed in the old canon up to the end as just existing if it conceivably could have come about earlier with a slightly altered origin.

Maybe I should just include all of the old vassal families even if they were formed after the starting date of the new setting.

That's probably a fair idea, unless specifically contradicted. For example, there is a Unicorn shugenja called Iuchi Shoan in the novella who uses her powers to protect the child of the Champion. This is a pretty clear indication that the Horiuchi just don't exist in this timeline. Could I suggest that it may be useful saying which great family each vassal is attached to? It would make it easier when working on things for them.

One final thought - I always considered the Ujina to be a vassal of the Usagi family.

5 hours ago, neilcell said:

Not meaning to distract nor hijack the discussion, but I feel it is best asked here.

In the AEG canon, some of the Agasha defected to the Phoenix. Did any of their vassal families go with them? Or did the remaining Agasha who became Tamori consist of the vassals who refused to defect with the Agasha?

The wiki suggests that the Atsumaru went to the Phoenix, and the Izaku seems to straddle the two Clans to begin with.

5 hours ago, Diogo Salazar said:

Phoenix Agasha, do they really exist or it was just an excuse for the Agasha to rebrand themselves? Sorry, just joking about the fact that I have never seen a Phoenix player or NPC from the Agasha family when the setting is set post defection.

There were some prominent CCG characters, such as Chieh and Seruma, and I have seen more than one in the large discord games. I'm going to suggest that this is dependent on the group of players.

17 hours ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

Scorpion
Aotora
Jitsuyoteki?
Kochako
Kuriyama
Nanbu
Sentaki
Tansaku
Tokagure
Ugawa

Emerald Empire mentions a 'Rokugo no Bayushi' family on pp.130:

"Meanwhile, the Bayushi use their vassal Rokugo family to control gaming parlors and black markets along the river, profiting off the very pirates that the public face of the family is devoted to fighting."

17 hours ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

Crane
Ashidaka
Fujihiro?
Hanamofu
Hiramachi
Iwasaki
Junichi
Katogama
Moshibaru
Nobuto
Tsume

Emerald Empire, pp.117, Hiramori no Daidoji

"The Uebe Marshes are an inhospitable region in Anshin Province, under the authority of the Hiramori vassal family of the Daidoji."

Since it's talking about the Uebe marshes, one can assume this (from Courts of Stone) is also talking about the Hiramori, and the Songbird's Cage is Shiro Hiramori:

"One such settlement is known as Motsureta Mura, or Tangled Path Village. It is so named for the confusing and often-flooded roads that wind through the surrounding barrier swamps, but in true Crane fashion, the name has a double meaning. “Motsureta” also means “confused” and “embarrassed;” an assignment there is generally perceived as a punishment for disgracing oneself or the clan. While that is not always so—samurai are assigned there regularly for other reasons—that fact does little to dispel the stigma.

Motsureta Mura lies in the vast Uebe Marshes. To the northeast, just visible above the swampy canopy, the arched rooftops of the Songbird’s Cage, an ancestral castle of a Daidoji vassal family, overlook the village."

17 hours ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

Phoenix
Chukan
Iga
Koganshi?
Nani
Nasu
Sesai
Sodona

Obviously Kaito no Isawa (now simply Kaito), depending on the timeframe of a particular campaign or story.

Edited by Magnus Grendel
2 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Emerald Empire mentions a 'Rokugo no Bayushi' family on pp.130:

"Meanwhile, the Bayushi use their vassal Rokugo family to control gaming parlors and black markets along the river, profiting off the very pirates that the public face of the family is devoted to fighting."

Emerald Empire, pp.117, Hiramori no Daidoji

"The Uebe Marshes are an inhospitable region in Anshin Province, under the authority of the Hiramori vassal family of the Daidoji."

Since it's talking about the Uebe marshes, one can assume this (from Courts of Stone) is also talking about the Hiramori, and the Songbird's Cage is Shiro Hiramori:

"One such settlement is known as Motsureta Mura, or Tangled Path Village. It is so named for the confusing and often-flooded roads that wind through the surrounding barrier swamps, but in true Crane fashion, the name has a double meaning. “Motsureta” also means “confused” and “embarrassed;” an assignment there is generally perceived as a punishment for disgracing oneself or the clan. While that is not always so—samurai are assigned there regularly for other reasons—that fact does little to dispel the stigma.

Motsureta Mura lies in the vast Uebe Marshes. To the northeast, just visible above the swampy canopy, the arched rooftops of the Songbird’s Cage, an ancestral castle of a Daidoji vassal family, overlook the village."

Obviously Kaito no Isawa (now simply Kaito), depending on the timeframe of a particular campaign or story.

Rokugo was another that wasn't supposed to exist yet. I guess I will just add all of them from the old timeline regardless of whether or not they are supposed to exist yet because it looks like the story team decided to ignore that and just adopt them all anyway.

It's kind of an odd situation with the Mantis though. Apparently they have no official family name, but they have several vassal families. But a couple of those are meant to exist already, so... I guess that weirdness was already a thing.

But this looks like it could be fun-- an additional 8-14 families added to every clan seems like it could really expand on the variety of both PCs and NPCs.

The thing with the Mantis is down to their history. As per the old lore, Gusai was awarded as a family name for the Mantis, when said Champion of the clan smuggled a knife into court and threatened the Emperor with it (then he was executed). Later on, the family was involved in some sort of treachery (I forget what) and the name was stripped from them again. So, it was never really a vassal family name, but is no longer in use. The rest of them appear to be ones that postdate getting Yoritomo.

I'd probably not use family names for the Mantis at all, but if you felt the need to expand their options, I might do something like saying that perhaps a couple of the big settlements, or the fleet flagship, have hereditary positions that lead to a slightly different skill.

34 minutes ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

I'd probably not use family names for the Mantis at all, but if you felt the need to expand their options, I might do something like saying that perhaps a couple of the big settlements, or the fleet flagship, have hereditary positions that lead to a slightly different skill.

I think that's fair. Gotei port is the second biggest city in the Empire, not every 'no Gotei' Mantis will be a sailor.

I like the idea I have seen in the DIY vassal families thread, that if you are playing a vassal family samurai, that you reduce the glory by 5 and the koku by 1. However I wouldn't just replace one skill for another. Looking at question 7 of character creation, I would just increase one skill that is the most related with the history of the vassal family. That would be a quick and easy addition to character creation I think. Here follows my take on the vassals of the Phoenix:

  • 2a: If you are a member of a vassal family, reduce the Glory by 5, Starting Wealth by 1 koku and increase one of the follow skills:

Phoenix
Asako no Chukan +1 Composition or +1 Government
Asako no Nani +1 Meditation or +1 Theology
Isawa no Shingon +1 Design or +1 Smithing
Shiba no Iga +1 Skullduggery or +1 Theology (there is no information on the wiki, other then one member becoming a maho-tsukai, so let us give this family skills that are relevant for a maho-tsukai?)
Shiba no Koganshi +1 Design or +1 Smithing
Shiba no Nasu +1 Command or +1 Government
Shiba no Sesai +1 Fitness or +1 Skullduggery
Shiba no Sodona +1 Games or +1 Sentiment

Of course adding a short text describing the vassal families goals within the main family, would go a long way. I tried to not overlap this skill increase with the increase they get from choosing the main family.

With this setup, the vassal family samurai would be a little be less known and little bit poorer, but because they had to train/work a little bit harder than the main family, they have gain a little bit more inside than main family samurai.

Side note. There are 24 skills, minus the two skills that are increased from the main family, that leaves us with 22 skills. With those 22 skills, there are 22*21-22 = 440 unique combinations possible. So the maximum number of vassal families, which don't overlap in their duties (skills wise at least) for one main family, would be 440.

There's been a reasonable amount of other stuff out since I first wrote that and I would agree with your update to the method. However, there a couple of skills that I would be hesitant to give as vassal family bonuses for the same reason that they aren't really given as family bonuses - the various Martial Arts skills. I might also be tempted to exclude the Clan skill from the options too.

7 hours ago, Kiso said:

Side note. There are 24 skills, minus the two skills that are increased from the main family, that leaves us with 22 skills. With those 22 skills, there are 22*21-22 = 440 unique combinations possible. So the maximum number of vassal families, which don't overlap in their duties (skills wise at least) for one main family, would be 440.

Excuse me for calling you out on stats. You forgot that (A or B) is functionally the same as (B or A) so the number you need is (22*21)/2 = 231. If we also go with the other exclusions, it comes to (18*17)/2 = 153. Which is still a very impressive number :) .

If you're concerned about current canon, then the Maisuna family of the Crab doesn't exist. This appears to just be a Romanji version of "Mason", as in "stone mason"; it was a Kaiu vassal family in the old lore. When I was writing the Crab novella, and described the Gates of Persistence in the Shinomen Mori, I had them built by Kaiu; in the old lore, it was a Maisuna, but FFG seems quite determined to excise things like that from their current lore. There may be other vassal family names that suffer from the same issue.

Of course, if you don't particularly care about the current canon, then by all means carry on, full speed ahead!

1 hour ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

Excuse me for calling you out on stats. You forgot that (A or B) is functionally the same as (B or A) so the number you need is (22*21)/2 = 231. If we also go with the other exclusions, it comes to (18*17)/2 = 153. Which is still a very impressive number :) .

You are right, thanks for the correction. So 231 vassal families for every main family.

1 hour ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

There's been a reasonable amount of other stuff out since I first wrote that and I would agree with your update to the method. However, there a couple of skills that I would be hesitant to give as vassal family bonuses for the same reason that they aren't really given as family bonuses - the various Martial Arts skills. I might also be tempted to exclude the Clan skill from the options too.

I understand your point (there are 6 martial skills, outside of Martial Arts [xyz], which one do you also exclude). However seeing that FFG seems to make every (what feels to be) OP combination possible (Shugenja + Bushi tag schools for example), so I think FFG would have done the same. As can be seen with the Martial Arts [Melee] bonus you get if you create a ronin with the Ronin Family Upbringing.

If you have a shugenja player for example, we would like to exclude the extra rank in Theology the might get from a vassal family, because they use this skill to cast invocations. For players with another tags we might need to exclude other skills too. I think it is easier for us to just allow those martial skills, as we already try to exclude the skills the main families is associated the most.

Edited by Kiso
28 minutes ago, DGLaderoute said:

If you're concerned about current canon, then the Maisuna family of the Crab doesn't exist. This appears to just be a Romanji version of "Mason", as in "stone mason"; it was a Kaiu vassal family in the old lore. When I was writing the Crab novella, and described the Gates of Persistence in the Shinomen Mori, I had them built by Kaiu; in the old lore, it was a Maisuna, but FFG seems quite determined to excise things like that from their current lore. There may be other vassal family names that suffer from the same issue.

Of course, if you don't particularly care about the current canon, then by all means carry on, full speed ahead!

If you look above, you will notice that I first excised all the names from the list that were found on the wiki but hadn't been created yet. But then several others pointed out that families that shouldn't exist yet, assuming the events that created them even happen, have been specifically cited as existing. Ultimately that just makes me feel like I may as well include everything that could possibly exist. It is just meant to be a player/gm resource so it isn't necessary to be 100% accurate. I might even include some entirely fan creation ones.

Because it doesn't really matter-- this exercise stems from another discussion where, after realizing that there were 100,000s of samurai in any given clan and the likelihood of names repeating in clans I felt like it would be way, way better if players and gms could have a wide variety of names to choose from in every clan rather than being limited to 4-5 per clan. So that's all I am trying to do here-- really expand the list of names players and gms can use when creating PCs and NPCs for those campaigns where you get tired of hearing the same 4-5 names all the time. The short list of names works great for the card game because players only need to learn about 40 names and can immediately identify what clan and what role a given character is. But within the RPG? Where it is sometimes implied that the iconography of Rokugan is so vast and varied that there used to be a skill to see if one could remember which clans certain names belonged to when there were only 40 families in all the great clans and only 15 minor clans, most of which gave away what animal they were with their name?...

Nah-- in the RPG it could be way more fun for there to be 200 names in Rokugan so there is a chance to hear unfamiliar names and even the players not always perfectly remembering which clan those names belong to.

23 minutes ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

If you look above, you will notice that I first excised all the names from the list that were found on the wiki but hadn't been created yet. But then several others pointed out that families that shouldn't exist yet, assuming the events that created them even happen, have been specifically cited as existing. Ultimately that just makes me feel like I may as well include everything that could possibly exist. It is just meant to be a player/gm resource so it isn't necessary to be 100% accurate. I might even include some entirely fan creation ones.

Understood. That's why I emphasized that this was only really applicable for people that are concerned with the current canon. But for those running games/campaigns, then it's whatever works for them.