I'm trying to work out the order of events when Quickdraw uses Inertial Dampeners.

Now that we know this works in the new RR, but how does this go?

Is this correct?

1. Before she would execute a maneuver, QD triggers ID.

2. This causes QD to spend a shield.

3. QD spends her charge and performs a bonus primary attack.

4. QD executes the white maneuver full stop.

5. QD performs an action during the perform action step.

6. QD gains a stress token after the perform action step.

Is there a way to add this to the ability queue in a different order? Can QD accomplish the perform action step before performing the bonus primary attack?

The stress is gained after the maneuver, before the perform action step. Other than that, it looks correct.

Quickdraw cannot move the perform action step to occur before ID triggers.

I'm fairly sure that she would need to perform the maneuver (At least) before making the attack, as ability's need to be fully resolved before triggering connected abilities. But that is just my speculation.

However she would defiantly NOT get to perform her action as she would gain the stress first.

Thank you!

So the correct order of events is:

1. Before she would execute the maneuver, QD triggers ID.

2. QD fully resolves ID by spending a shield, executing the white full stop, and gaining a stress token.

3. QD can not take an action during the perform action step because she is stressed.

4. QD performs a bonus primary attack.

5. The activation phase ends after all of the other init 6 ships finish activating (if any are left).

6. The engagement phase begins.

This prompts a follow on question which I think I know the answer to...

In this scenario, if QD destroys her target during her bonus attack, the target is removed BEFORE the engagement phase, therefore they would be removed before they have an opportunity to engage under simultaneous fire. Correct?

9 minutes ago, Yank01 said:

Thank you!

So the correct order of events is:

1. Before she would execute the maneuver, QD triggers ID.

2. QD fully resolves ID by spending a shield, executing the white full stop, and gaining a stress token.

3. QD can not take an action during the perform action step because she is stressed.

4. QD performs a bonus primary attack.

5. The activation phase ends after all of the other init 6 ships finish activating (if any are left).

6. The engagement phase begins.

This prompts a follow on question which I think I know the answer to...

In this scenario, if QD destroys her target during her bonus attack, the target is removed BEFORE the engagement phase, therefore they would be removed before they have an opportunity to engage under simultaneous fire. Correct?

I *believe* so? Like i said, its my speculation that ID resolves completely before QD can trigger, but ill wait for more to chime in to confirm or correct me on that.

5 hours ago, Yank01 said:

Thank you!

So the correct order of events is:

1. Before she would execute the maneuver, QD triggers ID.

2. QD fully resolves ID by spending a shield, executing the white full stop, and gaining a stress token.

3. QD can not take an action during the perform action step because she is stressed.

4. QD performs a bonus primary attack.

5. The activation phase ends after all of the other init 6 ships finish activating (if any are left).

6. The engagement phase begins.

This prompts a follow on question which I think I know the answer to...

In this scenario, if QD destroys her target during her bonus attack, the target is removed BEFORE the engagement phase, therefore they would be removed before they have an opportunity to engage under simultaneous fire. Correct?

Swap 3 and 4 and you can remove "init 6" from 5 (a bit nitpicky I'll admit, but more accurate due to Huge Ships being "legal" in casual standard play even though they aren't for Extended or Hyperspace tournament play).

Given this ruling: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/277390-x-wing-official-rulings/?do=findComment&comment=3653618

I'm not sure that the stress would occur before Quickdraw's attack, after the attack, or if they should share the same timing. I could see it argued multiple ways.

8 hours ago, joeshmoe554 said:

Given this ruling: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/277390-x-wing-official-rulings/?do=findComment&comment=3653618

I'm not sure that the stress would occur before Quickdraw's attack, after the attack, or if they should share the same timing. I could see it argued multiple ways.

With that ruling as a reference point (and a great one to bring up!), quickdraw’s timing window would be earlier than the stress, wouldn’t it?
Inertial dampeners’ phrases in order and parsed out:

1. (Timing) Before you would execute a maneuver, (effect=cost) you may spend one shield.

2. (Timing: the shield has been spent=lost) If you do, (effect) execute a white stop

3. ... (timing: after the white stop) then (effect) gain one stress.

I know my numbering system above isn’t built in officially, but assuming it works for parsing purposes, if Kanan can trigger simultaneously with phrase 3’s ability (indicating that the parsing ins acceptable), then I believe QD has lost the shield at the same time the effect for executing the white stop maneuver would take place (phrase 2), and thus would have the opportunity to queue both QD’s ability and executing the white stop together before stress. This would still be an attack during Activation (consider that any bombs are still awaiting their appointed detonation time). And if her bonus attack results in a destroyed ship, that ship would be removed the same as if it was destroyed by a bomb or mine triggering at the end (but still within) the activation phase.Simultaneous Fire only applies in the engagement phase at each initiative step.

Judges for these unofficial TTS games have stated that the shield loss from Dampeners doesn't not trigger QD's ability because she is "spending a shield" vs. "losing a shield." Has there been an update since to confirm that on the FFG side? (This isn't a place for strategy talk I know, but opting to lose a QD shield is a _bit_ questionable of a move altogether).

46 minutes ago, kempokid said:

Judges for these unofficial TTS games have stated that the shield loss from Dampeners doesn't not trigger QD's ability because she is "spending a shield" vs. "losing a shield." Has there been an update since to confirm that on the FFG side? (This isn't a place for strategy talk I know, but opting to lose a QD shield is a _bit_ questionable of a move altogether).

All I've got is from just re-reading the latest RG about charges (since shields are charges):

10 hours ago, Synel said:

With that ruling as a reference point (and a great one to bring up!), quickdraw’s timing window would be earlier than the stress, wouldn’t it?
Inertial dampeners’ phrases in order and parsed out:

1. (Timing) Before you would execute a maneuver, (effect=cost) you may spend one shield.

2. (Timing: the shield has been spent=lost) If you do, (effect) execute a white stop

3. ... (timing: after the white stop) then (effect) gain one stress.

I know my numbering system above isn’t built in officially, but assuming it works for parsing purposes, if Kanan can trigger simultaneously with phrase 3’s ability (indicating that the parsing ins acceptable), then I believe QD has lost the shield at the same time the effect for executing the white stop maneuver would take place (phrase 2), and thus would have the opportunity to queue both QD’s ability and executing the white stop together before stress. This would still be an attack during Activation (consider that any bombs are still awaiting their appointed detonation time). And if her bonus attack results in a destroyed ship, that ship would be removed the same as if it was destroyed by a bomb or mine triggering at the end (but still within) the activation phase.Simultaneous Fire only applies in the engagement phase at each initiative step.

As far as I know, once an ability is in the process of undergoing its resolution, nothing can interrupt it. That means that once Quickdraw has chosen to use Inertial Dampeners, and begins to resolve it, she has to finish the process of Inertial Dampeners before she can start to resolve anything else. The timing would go something like this:

1. ACTIVATION BEGINS
   1. Before moving, Inertial Dampeners (ID) triggers, and goes into the queue.
2. EXECUTE MANEUVER STEP
   1. ID resolves. QD elects to use ID.
      1. QD spends (loses) a shield as the cost.
         1. QD pilot ability triggers, and enters the queue.
      2. QD reveals her dial, but disregards it, and instead completes the white stop maneuver as part of ID.
      3. QD gains a stress as part of ID.
   2. QD pilot ability resolves. QD elects to perform an attack.
      1. QD spends her charge, and performs 1 bonus attack.
3. PERFORM ACTION STEP
   1. As QD is stressed, no action may (normally) be performed.
4. ACTIVATION FINISHES

1 hour ago, emeraldbeacon said:

As far as I know, once an ability is in the process of undergoing its resolution, nothing can interrupt it. That means that once Quickdraw has chosen to use Inertial Dampeners, and begins to resolve it, she has to finish the process of Inertial Dampeners before she can start to resolve anything else. The timing would go something like this:

1. ACTIVATION BEGINS
   1. Before moving, Inertial Dampeners (ID) triggers, and goes into the queue.
2. EXECUTE MANEUVER STEP
   1. ID resolves. QD elects to use ID.
      1. QD spends (loses) a shield as the cost.
         1. QD pilot ability triggers, and enters the queue.
      2. QD reveals her dial, but disregards it, and instead completes the white stop maneuver as part of ID.
      3. QD gains a stress as part of ID.
   2. QD pilot ability resolves. QD elects to perform an attack.
      1. QD spends her charge, and performs 1 bonus attack.
3. PERFORM ACTION STEP
   1. As QD is stressed, no action may (normally) be performed.
4. ACTIVATION FINISHES

yeah, i would love to agree with this. it would be so straight forward and easily applicable to all the rules, but FFG does not agree. according to them, anything in an ability or effect with the wording "then (...)" is a separate effect (heck, i might even be a separate ability according to them) and thus, it can be treated separately in the ability queue.

all according to the rules clarification on how inertial dampeners interacts with kanan jarrus posted above.

it's also in the rules reference on page 32:


other abilities can enter the queue if they are triggered by effects in the queue - and according to the rules on the ability queue, they will be added to the front of the queue and resolved first. thus, quickdraw will not be stressed while she performs her bonus attack if she uses intertial dampeners. she will gain the stress afterwards. all still before the perform action step of course.

8 hours ago, meffo said:

yeah, i would love to agree with this. it would be so straight forward and easily applicable to all the rules, but FFG does not agree. according to them, anything in an ability or effect with the wording "then (...)" is a separate effect (heck, i might even be a separate ability according to them) and thus, it can be treated separately in the ability queue.

all according to the rules clarification on how inertial dampeners interacts with kanan jarrus posted above.

it's also in the rules reference on page 32:


other abilities can enter the queue if they are triggered by effects in the queue - and according to the rules on the ability queue, they will be added to the front of the queue and resolved first. thus, quickdraw will not be stressed while she performs her bonus attack if she uses intertial dampeners. she will gain the stress afterwards. all still before the perform action step of course.

There is an implied errata to Inertial Dampeners with that ruling that would have it read as follows.

Before you would execute a maneuver, you may spend 1 shield. If you do, execute a white (0 ) instead of the maneuver you revealed. After you execute this maneuver , gain 1 stress token.

That's basically how they are saying that card is written, with the added timing window of 'after you execute the maneuver' in order for it to coincide with Kanan's timing window of 'After a friendly ship at range 0-2 fully executes a white maneuver'. Otherwise, that ruling makes no sense.

Either way, i would say that at the very least, the maneuver is executed before QB makes the attack as the loss of the shield is the cost for executing the maneuver. Agreed?

2 hours ago, Lyianx said:

Either way, i would say that at the very least, the maneuver is executed before QB makes the attack as the loss of the shield is the cost for executing the maneuver. Agreed?

Agreed, although it's also ALMOST a moot point... either Quickdraw spends a shield, moves nowhere, takes stress, and shoots... or Quickdraw spends a shield, shoots, moves nowhere, and takes a stress. The end result is almost identical; the only difference (Quickdraw does or doesn't have a stress token ) is related to effects that react to a stressed attacker (like Latts Razzi crew).

1 hour ago, emeraldbeacon said:

Agreed, although it's also ALMOST a moot point... either Quickdraw spends a shield, moves nowhere, takes stress, and shoots... or Quickdraw spends a shield, shoots, moves nowhere, and takes a stress. The end result is almost identical; the only difference (Quickdraw does or doesn't have a stress token ) is related to effects that react to a stressed attacker (like Latts Razzi crew).

If Quickdraw is equipped with Proud Tradition (which is conceivable in this case), it would matter very much when that stress lands, not for the effect of focusing, but for the effect of the opponent spending a focus to flip the card.

1 hour ago, emeraldbeacon said:

Agreed, although it's also ALMOST a moot point... either Quickdraw spends a shield, moves nowhere, takes stress, and shoots... or Quickdraw spends a shield, shoots, moves nowhere, and takes a stress. The end result is almost identical; the only difference (Quickdraw does or doesn't have a stress token ) is related to effects that react to a stressed attacker (like Latts Razzi crew).

Um. no.

The 'or' is QD spends a shield, moves nowhere, shoots, takes a stress.

The only reason i point that out is if ID can be interrupted by other abilities, then it could be possible for something to trigger between QD's movement, and her shooting as a result of her losing a shield. Not sure any other ability exists just yet, but its possible.

44 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

Um. no.

The 'or' is QD spends a shield, moves nowhere, shoots, takes a stress.

The only reason i point that out is if ID can be interrupted by other abilities, then it could be possible for something to trigger between QD's movement, and her shooting as a result of her losing a shield. Not sure any other ability exists just yet, but its possible.

snap shot and foresight both happens after a ship executes a maneuver. so quickdraw could take a blinded pilot or a weapons disabled before performing her bonus attack. in effect, you could start throwing in some abilities with the timing "after you perform an attack" in there - and so on...

1 hour ago, Lyianx said:

Um. no.

The 'or' is QD spends a shield, moves nowhere, shoots, takes a stress.

The only reason i point that out is if ID can be interrupted by other abilities, then it could be possible for something to trigger between QD's movement, and her shooting as a result of her losing a shield. Not sure any other ability exists just yet, but its possible.

The ruling for Kanan + ID makes everything more complicated... so I suppose that a single ability (Inertial Dampeners) is actually two abilities ("perform an alternate maneuver" followed by "gain a stress") with a single cost (spend a shield). I was reasonably sure you can't pause the resolution of a queued ability, to trigger and resolve another ability, only THEN to return to the first ability... but now I'm not so sure. I guess, with that in mind, the flow would go something like this...

• Quickdraw activates, Inertial Dampeners trigger.
  • QUEUE: Inertial Dampeners (pending)
• Quickdraw chooses to resolve Inertial Dampeners.
  • QUEUE: Inertial Dampeners (complete), Maneuver replacement (pending)
• Quickdraw spends a shield as part of ID cost. Pilot ability triggers.
  • QUEUE: Maneuver replacement (resolving), QD Pilot Ability (pending)
• Quickdraw reveals dial, performs white full stop maneuver. 2nd part of ID triggers.
  • QUEUE: Maneyver replacement (complete), QD Pilot Ability (pending), Stress gain (pending)
• Quickdraw chooses to resolve Pilot Ability
  • QUEUE: QD Pilot Ability (resolving), Stress gain (pending)
• Quickdraw spends ship charge to perform a bonus attack.
  • QUEUE: QD Pilot Ability (complete), Stress gain (pending)
• Quickdraw gains a stress.
  • QUEUE: Stress gain (complete)

At least, that's my interpretation.

19 hours ago, meffo said:

it's also in the rules reference on page 32:

The Kanan FAQ states that "The player who controls both effects determines the order they enter the queue, and the abilities resolve in that order." That makes it even more complex. How many items are entering the queue in this case? Move nowhere, shoot, stress? What about the perform action step, is that clearly after the others (I think it might be...)? This definitely has an implication for Proud Tradition as @Synel points out.

It appears that the controlling player can dictate the order and choose:

1. Move nowhere, stress, shoot

OR

2. Move nowhere, shoot, stress

What about - 3. Shoot, move nowhere, stress? Seems that could be in-bounds too.

2 hours ago, Yank01 said:

What about - 3. Shoot, move nowhere, stress? Seems that could be in-bounds too.

The reason I doubt this, is that moving nowhere is explicitly tied to paying the cost for ID - spending (losing) a shield. Usually, paying a cost is specifically tied to an effect, which would have to happen at that point.

7 hours ago, emeraldbeacon said:

The ruling for Kanan + ID makes everything more complicated... so I suppose that a single ability (Inertial Dampeners) is actually two abilities ("perform an alternate maneuver" followed by "gain a stress") with a single cost (spend a shield). I was reasonably sure you can't pause the resolution of a queued ability, to trigger and resolve another ability, only THEN to return to the first ability... but now I'm not so sure. I guess, with that in mind, the flow would go something like this...

• Quickdraw activates, Inertial Dampeners trigger.
  • QUEUE: Inertial Dampeners (pending)
• Quickdraw chooses to resolve Inertial Dampeners.
  • QUEUE: Inertial Dampeners (complete), Maneuver replacement (pending)
• Quickdraw spends a shield as part of ID cost. Pilot ability triggers.
  • QUEUE: Maneuver replacement (resolving), QD Pilot Ability (pending)
• Quickdraw reveals dial, performs white full stop maneuver. 2nd part of ID triggers.
  • QUEUE: Maneyver replacement (complete), QD Pilot Ability (pending), Stress gain (pending)
• Quickdraw chooses to resolve Pilot Ability
  • QUEUE: QD Pilot Ability (resolving), Stress gain (pending)
• Quickdraw spends ship charge to perform a bonus attack.
  • QUEUE: QD Pilot Ability (complete), Stress gain (pending)
• Quickdraw gains a stress.
  • QUEUE: Stress gain (complete)

At least, that's my interpretation.

Honestly, i hate the Kanan+ID ruling. I dont (personally) think that the timing of ID giving the stress, and Kanan removing the stress Are the same. "the timing portion" is stupid as, as you said, the ability should complete IN ITS ENTIRETY and not allow for interruptions. And as its written on the card (as one complete paragraph) its a singular ability. Which is why i think they should just get rid of the ruling, and Errata the card to separate the 'after you compete this maneuver, gain 1 stress' as its own paragraph so it Can be interrupted.

On a completely, utterly, non-written-rules-bases, personal level, how i *think* QD+ID should work, is the stress should come before her bonus attack. But i don't think the written rules fully support that.

@meffo I had snapshot in mind when i was writing that but assumed it happened during the same timing window as the stress gain, which would [likely be ruled] after QD's bonus attack. So didn't think it had much relevance.

6 minutes ago, emeraldbeacon said:

The reason I doubt this, is that moving nowhere is explicitly tied to paying the cost for ID - spending (losing) a shield. Usually, paying a cost is specifically tied to an effect, which would have to happen at that point.

Agreed. And there an FAQ on page 31 supports this.

Quote

Q: If Anakin Skywalker [Naboo Royal N-1] uses his pilot ability to barrel roll (note that this is not a [barrel roll] action) and fails, must he still spend the 󲈯 ?

A: No. A barrel roll can fail in the same manner as a [barrel roll] action, but because Anakin's ability is not an action, the [Force] cost is a cost to resolve the effect (which Anakin cannot do in the case of failure) rather than a cost to attempt the action

This, seems to point toward paying a cost comes *after* you actually resolve the effect (in this case completing the maneuver).

Which brings in a new question. Does gaining a stress from ID, count as resolving the effect of ID, and thus, mean that QD does not actually loose the shield until after gaining the stress? Wording of "if you do" seems to indicate 'no', but its an interesting question.