If a ship with Automated Targeting Priority declares an attack with a lock-based weapon, does it simply target the locked enemy regardless of range because it's the only valid target?

I've read the new rules reference's section on ATP (p.36) and thought I understood it, but the choice of example has confused me. It states:

"Q: What does "closest valid attack range" as mentioned on Automated Target Priority mean exactly?A: The "closest valid attack range" is the closest attack range for a given attack that has one or more potential valid defenders. For example, consider a TIE/sf fighter equipped with Concussion Missiles has one enemy ship in its 򈫠at range 1, one enemy ship outside its 򈫠at range 0, two enemy ships in its 򈫠at range 2, and one enemy ship in its 򈫠at range 3. Its 򈭠is in its 򈫮 The TIE/sf fighter measures range (determining the above information) and chooses a weapon as normal. If it chooses its primary weapon, when it proceeds to choose a defender, it must choose the enemy ship in its 򈫠at attack range 1. The enemy ship at range 0 outside of its 򈫠is not at a valid attack range (nor is it in arc for the attack, which also excludes it from being at a valid attack range), so it is ignored. The enemy ships at attack range 2 and attack range 3 are not at the closest valid attack range, so they cannot be chosen as the defender. If it chooses its Concussion Missiles, it cannot choose the enemy ship at range 0, nor the one at range 1 in its 򈫬 as neither of those ships is at a valid attack range (Concussion Missiles require attack range 2–3). It can choose either of the ships at attack range 2 to be the defender. It does not need to determine which of those two is physically closer—both are at the "closest valid attack range." It cannot choose the ship at range 3."

Now, I would've thought that with Concussion Missiles, you declare the weapon and therefore there's no choice of target (barring tricks to have more than one lock like Redline or R3 astro), making ATP's restriction irrelevant for that attack.

However, the rules reference specifically uses Concussion Missiles as an example and then goes through the ATP targeting process, making it seem like if the locked target is range 3 and there's another enemy at range 2, then... the locked target isn't a valid target of attack maybe?

Here's the specific card text:

Quote

While you perform an attack, you must choose a defender at the closest valid attack range.

After you perform an attack that missed, place 1 calculate token on this card.

Before you engage, you may remove 1 calculate token from this card to gain a matching token.

(For purposes of this explanation, I'm going to shorten the phrase "at the closest valid attack range" to simply "closest.")

I can see what the argument is; A.T.P. requires that you HAVE to choose the "closest" target the weapon can fire at. That's a mandatory card rule, which overrides any rules text. The weapon requirement that you have a lock on the defender does not interact with the target selection restriction provided by A.T.P.; your tech only cares about which ship is "closest," given your choice of weapon. Think of it like two computers with contradictory programming: One says "Gotta shoot at the closest guy" while the other says "Gotta shoot at the locked guy." If ever those two requirements disagree with each other, then the whole dang system locks up.

As a result, using lock-required weapons with A.T.P. is probably a poor decision, in the long run.

1 hour ago, Dasharr said:

If a ship with Automated Targeting Priority declares an attack with a lock-based weapon, does it simply target the locked enemy regardless of range because it's the only valid target?

As you note, some ships can have more than one lock, but for most ships, kinda yeah.

The way I read the FAQ is that you'll pick a weapon, then among all the valid targets for that weapon, you have to pick one at the closest attack range.

So, if I understand the intent correctly, ATP basically grants an "automatic lock" on the appropriate target as evaluated by the text requirements, satisfying the lock requirement for the given weapon (and ignoring any locks you've manually put into place for the duration of that shot). 🤔

9 minutes ago, Spinland said:

So, if I understand the intent correctly, ATP basically grants an "automatic lock" on the appropriate target as evaluated by the text requirements, satisfying the lock requirement for the given weapon (and ignoring any locks you've manually put into place for the duration of that shot). 🤔

That's not what is occurring at all.

ATP simply goes "Doesn't matter what weapon you are using, you've got to shoot the closest target". That doesn't take into consideration any other requirements that may be in force for that weapon. If my ATP-using, Concussion Missile-equipped ship had a lock on a target at range three, and there was an additional enemy at range two, the ATP would mean I would have to declare the range two target as the defender. However, as I do not have a lock on the range 2 target, I do not meet the requirements to fire my missiles. Per the rules reference, I then can either select a different weapon, or decline to attack all together.

To help the discussion, here's the full ATTACK section from the RR:

ATTACK
Ships can perform attacks which thematically represents the ship firing its blaster cannons, ordnance, or other weapons.
If a ship performs an attack, it becomes the attacker then follows these steps:
1. Declare Target: During this step, the attacking player identifies and names the defender of the attack.
a. Measure Range: The attacking player measures range from the attacker to any number of enemy ships and determines which enemy ships are in which of its arcs.
b. Choose Weapon: The attacking player chooses one of the attacker’s primary or special weapons.
c. Declare Defender: The attacking player chooses an enemy ship to be the defender. The defender must meet the requirements defined by the weapon.
d. Pay Costs: The attacker must pay any costs for performing the attack.

• During the Declare Target step, the attack arc is the arc that corresponds to the chosen weapon. The attack range is determined by measuring range from the closest point of the attacker to the closest point of the defender that is in the attack arc.
• A primary weapon requires the attack range to be range 1–3. A primary weapon has no cost by default.
• Special weapons have different requirements specified by the source of the attack.
• A ship cannot attack a ship at range 0, even if the attack range would be range 1.
• If there is no valid target for the chosen weapon, or if the attacker cannot pay the costs required for the attack, the attacking player either chooses a different weapon or chooses not to attack.

Fair enough, and that does seem to follow the master process. It's not how I read the posts upstream, and it also seems that ATP and a weapon that requires a lock are not going to play well together.

On 9/28/2020 at 7:16 AM, AceDogbert said:

ATP simply goes "Doesn't matter what weapon you are using, you've got to shoot the closest target". That doesn't take into consideration any other requirements that may be in force for that weapon. If my ATP-using, Concussion Missile-equipped ship had a lock on a target at range three, and there was an additional enemy at range two, the ATP would mean I would have to declare the range two target as the defender. However, as I do not have a lock on the range 2 target, I do not meet the requirements to fire my missiles. Per the rules reference, I then can either select a different weapon, or decline to attack all together.

To be clear though, if the ATP/Conc Carrier had lock on someone at range 3, and there was an enemy at range 1, how would that turn out if Conc Missiles were chosen as the weapon? Since Range 1 isn't valid for the Concs, would the missile attack go through, or would the ATP force the Conc Missile shot to be declined in favor of the range 1 shot?

52 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

To be clear though, if the ATP/Conc Carrier had lock on someone at range 3, and there was an enemy at range 1, how would that turn out if Conc Missiles were chosen as the weapon? Since Range 1 isn't valid for the Concs, would the missile attack go through, or would the ATP force the Conc Missile shot to be declined in favor of the range 1 shot?

My reading of the card would say that you could engage the range three target, as ATP specifies 'a defender at the closest valid attack range' (emphasis mine). This is all happening at step 1c of the attack rules, so we have already passed the point of weapon selection, which locks in our valid attack ranges (which in this instance is range 2-3). We cannot then select the range one target as the defender, as they are not in a valid attack range for our weapon.

However, I'd dearly love for FFG to provide clarification of the interactions between ATP, lock-based weapons, and weapons with specific attack ranges/arcs (for example, what happens if I've got ATP and a Heavy Laser Cannon? Can I fire the cannon at a range two target within the bullseye, or does ATP 'force' me to attempt to declare a range one target outside of bullseye?) before tournament play resumes whenever the **** that happens.

2 minutes ago, AceDogbert said:

We cannot then select the range one target as the defender, as they are not in a valid attack range for our weapon.

This was my interpretation, but I just wanted to be certain it wasn't my own wishes clouding my judgment.

So I'll repeat my read: I think weapon selection takes precedence. Here's the FAQ entry.

Quote

Q: What does "closest valid attack range" as mentioned on Automated Target Priority mean exactly?

A: The "closest valid attack range" is the closest attack range for a given attack that has one or more potential valid defenders. For example, consider a TIE/sf fighter equipped with Concussion Missiles has one enemy ship in its (V) at range 1, one enemy ship outside its (V) at range 0, two enemy ships in its (V) at range 2, and one enemy ship in its (V) at range 3. Its {turret} is in its (V). The TIE/sf fighter measures range (determining the above information) and chooses a weapon as normal.

If it chooses its primary weapon, when it proceeds to choose a defender, it must choose the enemy ship in its (V) at attack range 1. The enemy ship at range 0 outside of its (V) is not at a valid attack range (nor is it in arc for the attack, which also excludes it from being at a valid attack range), so it is ignored. The enemy ships at attack range 2 and attack range 3 are not at the closest valid attack range, so they cannot be chosen as the defender.

If it chooses its Concussion Missiles, it cannot choose the enemy ship at range 0, nor the one at range 1 in its (V), as neither of those ships is at a valid attack range (Concussion Missiles require attack range 2–3). It can choose either of the ships at attack range 2 to be the defender. It does not need to determine which of those two is physically closer—both are at the "closest valid attack range." It cannot choose the ship at range 3.

Basically, if you've chosen Concussion missiles, even if there's a Range 1 ship, you can choose a target at Range 2 because that's the closest *VALID* attack range.

4 minutes ago, AceDogbert said:

for example, what happens if I've got ATP and a Heavy Laser Cannon? Can I fire the cannon at a range two target within the bullseye, or does ATP 'force' me to attempt to declare a range one target outside of bullseye?

If there's a Range 1 non-bullseye, but a range 2 bullseye, you can choose the HLC first, then the closest valid target is the one in Bullseye at Range 2, and that's who you attack.

If a ship isn't in your weapon's arc, it isn't a valid target. Done.

ATP, as I read it and as I read the FAQ, does not force you to choose specific weapons. Weapon first, then target. It doesn't cancel attacks if there's an invalid target.

17 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

ATP, as I read it and as I read the FAQ, does not force you to choose specific weapons. Weapon first, then target. It doesn't cancel attacks if there's an invalid target.

I feel somewhat dense, but here goes the question/concern I still have: what if you choose a weapon that requires a lock, and you have such a lock, but there's another enemy ship in your arc that's closer (but to which you don't have a lock)?

It seems to me that choosing a weapon first, then sorting out the legal targets, means the locked target is the only valid one unless you have multiple locks on targets in arc.

18 minutes ago, Spinland said:

I feel somewhat dense, but here goes the question/concern I still have: what if you choose a weapon that requires a lock, and you have such a lock, but there's another enemy ship in your arc that's closer (but to which you don't have a lock)?

It seems to me that choosing a weapon first, then sorting out the legal targets, means the locked target is the only valid one unless you have multiple locks on targets in arc.

I believe that since the ship without the lock at the closer legal range must be the one that gets targeted, and as you cannot fire that munition at them, you hit this part of the rules:

On 9/28/2020 at 7:21 AM, AceDogbert said:

• If there is no valid target for the chosen weapon, or if the attacker cannot pay the costs required for the attack, the attacking player either chooses a different weapon or chooses not to attack.

Meaning you would need to swap to a primary attack.

I could be totally wrong on this, but I think this is what Dogbert was saying up above.

31 minutes ago, Spinland said:

I feel somewhat dense, but here goes the question/concern I still have: what if you choose a weapon that requires a lock, and you have such a lock, but there's another enemy ship in your arc that's closer (but to which you don't have a lock)?

It seems to me that choosing a weapon first, then sorting out the legal targets, means the locked target is the only valid one unless you have multiple locks on targets in arc.

I think if you choose that lock-based missile, you get to attack that target, even if there's someone closer.

7 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

I believe that since the ship without the lock at the closer legal range must be the one that gets targeted, and as you cannot fire that munition at them, you hit this part of the rules:

Meaning you would need to swap to a primary attack.

I could be totally wrong on this, but I think this is what Dogbert was saying up above.

I thought this was totally the opposite. Again, reading the FAQ:

51 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

If it chooses its Concussion Missiles, it cannot choose the enemy ship at range 0, nor the one at range 1 in its (V), as neither of those ships is at a valid attack range (Concussion Missiles require attack range 2–3). It can choose either of the ships at attack range 2 to be the defender.

This to me indicates that a ship with Concussion missiles, if it elects to use concussion missiles, can attack a Range 2 ship if there is a Range 1 ship in the same arc. Am I reading that bold bit wrong? It looks 100% crystal clear to me, but a lot of folks aren't seeing it, so I wonder if I'm missing something. I really think the FAQ is telling us to [1] choose any weapon [2] choose among the valid targets for a specific weapon based on range [3] attack one of those targets. A ship can be closest without having a valid attack range, so it doesn't count.

Every time I read the associated verbiage, I keep coming back to @theBitterFig 's take on it. I can see room for other takes, but they don't resonate for me.

FWIW I've fired off an inquiry to FFG asking for clarification. If I get something back I'll share.

I think one important fact is that, while your special weapons don't care about ATP, ATP absolutely cares about your weapon, because it's your weapon that establishes your attack arc: once you choose a weapon (Primary or Special), you look at the attack arc and range limits of that weapon , and you HAVE to choose the one that's in the nearest range band to you.

Given those restrictions, ATP is absolutly bound by the limitations of the weapon you choose, because that weapon establishes the attack arc which ATP references. Say an RZ-2 A-Wing has a Proton Rocket equipped; If they choose to use that weapon, then only the ships within that attack arc (in this case, a Bullseye) can be checked for the specific attack range. It doesn't matter if there are ships at Range 1 in your turret arc, only the bullseye matters for shots.

The big problem that ATP ships with ordnance can run into, is if they take a lock on one ship, but another ship moves into a closer range band in the attack arc. You cannot fire a Concussion Missile at a ship in your front arc at Range 3, if there is an enemy ship in your front arc at Range 2; ATP requires you to choose a ship the nearer ship, regardless of where your lock is.

Similarly, I think that if you have a double-turret ship (Rey's Falcon, Resistance Bomber), your turret weapon has two attack arcs, and both arcs are active for the purposes of ATC. Even if you want to shoot at a ship at Range 2 on your left, you might be forced to fire upon the ship at Range 1 on your right. The example I use here is, a tokenless Fenn Rau is in ATP-Rey's front arc at Range 2, while a well-defended Dengar is on her tail at Range 1. Rey might want to take the front shot, but ATP requires she choose the closer target for that weapon: Dengar.

so double requirements for an attack makes it impossible to perform unless both requirements can be fulfilled. for concussion missiles, the lock is a requirement. if you have both concussion missiles and automated target priority equipped and have several targets in arc, you must have a ship at range two locked to be able to perform the attack, since range 2 is the closest valid attack range for concussion missiles.

those are not my opinions. just asking whether that's the consensus i'm interpreting from this thread?

58 minutes ago, meffo said:

so double requirements for an attack makes it impossible to perform unless both requirements can be fulfilled. for concussion missiles, the lock is a requirement. if you have both concussion missiles and automated target priority equipped and have several targets in arc, you must have a ship at range two locked to be able to perform the attack, since range 2 is the closest valid attack range for concussion missiles.

those are not my opinions. just asking whether that's the consensus i'm interpreting from this thread?

That's what I'm getting, although if there were no ships at R2, and a viable (and locked) ship at R3, you'd be fine.

(sigh) I think you already know that, it's just SO FRUSTRATING to word it concisely.

7 hours ago, meffo said:

so double requirements for an attack makes it impossible to perform unless both requirements can be fulfilled. for concussion missiles, the lock is a requirement. if you have both concussion missiles and automated target priority equipped and have several targets in arc, you must have a ship at range two locked to be able to perform the attack, since range 2 is the closest valid attack range for concussion missiles.

those are not my opinions. just asking whether that's the consensus i'm interpreting from this thread?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I just don't agree with that. That's not at all what I'm arguing.

I guess I'm the odd one out, though.

2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I can't speak for anyone else, but I just don't agree with that. That's not at all what I'm arguing.

I guess I'm the odd one out, though.

i think i agreed with you, since the lock is a requirement. it's like if you have a lock, that locked ship is the only possible defender you could choose.

not so sure after looking at the text on "must" again, though. it says "must" is used to mean "is required to". not that i think that's actually synonymous with being a requirement, but still. especially since FFG uses the concussion missile in their own example, it gives some more credit to the other interpretation (as in the interpretation i described in my previous post).

seems difficult to interpret, describe, discuss and have an opinion on.

1 minute ago, meffo said:

i think i agreed with you, since the lock is a requirement. it's like if you have a lock, that locked ship is the only possible defender you could choose.

Yeah.

Maybe I'm stuck in old thinking, but I'd been mostly treating ATP like 1e Biggs. For any new folks out there, Biggs forced anyone able to attack him to attack him instead of anyone else at Range 1 of him, but he didn't apply if the weapon you were choosing couldn't target Biggs. You'd be free to pick any target for that weapon. Usually this was relevant with missiles torpedoes, but sometimes turret upgrades had this interaction.

I see ATP the same way, and I can half see where folks would read the FAQ this way, so maybe not 100% crystal now. However, I still think only a weapon's valid targets can have valid ranges. A non-locked ship isn't valid for Concussion Missiles.

Thematically, this makes sense to me--taking a lock is potentially overriding the automated protocols.

//

Anyhow, related thing. If an SF with the Gunner had the turret pointed back, and there was a Range 2 ship in front, and a range 1 ship behind, I'd let the TIE choose the Front Primary first, attack at Range 2, then shoot Turret at Range 1 with the bonus attack, since I view the turret and the front arc as separate weapons, and a ship can choose a weapon before choosing targets.

15 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Yeah.

Maybe I'm stuck in old thinking, but I'd been mostly treating ATP like 1e Biggs. For any new folks out there, Biggs forced anyone able to attack him to attack him instead of anyone else at Range 1 of him, but he didn't apply if the weapon you were choosing couldn't target Biggs. You'd be free to pick any target for that weapon. Usually this was relevant with missiles torpedoes, but sometimes turret upgrades had this interaction.

I see ATP the same way, and I can half see where folks would read the FAQ this way, so maybe not 100% crystal now. However, I still think only a weapon's valid targets can have valid ranges. A non-locked ship isn't valid for Concussion Missiles.

Thematically, this makes sense to me--taking a lock is potentially overriding the automated protocols.

//

Anyhow, related thing. If an SF with the Gunner had the turret pointed back, and there was a Range 2 ship in front, and a range 1 ship behind, I'd let the TIE choose the Front Primary first, attack at Range 2, then shoot Turret at Range 1 with the bonus attack, since I view the turret and the front arc as separate weapons, and a ship can choose a weapon before choosing targets.

oh, they are separate weapons RAW. it should work just as you describe it.

28 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Anyhow, related thing. If an SF with the Gunner had the turret pointed back, and there was a Range 2 ship in front, and a range 1 ship behind, I'd let the TIE choose the Front Primary first, attack at Range 2, then shoot Turret at Range 1 with the bonus attack, since I view the turret and the front arc as separate weapons, and a ship can choose a weapon before choosing targets.

Yeah, your TIE/sf example definitely works.

What's a little bit more gray, though, is the double turret arc of the YT-1300 or Starfortress... is it one weapon with two arcs (which I believe), or two separate weapons? Can I choose a ship at R2 on my left if there's a target at R1 on my right? If I have ATP and VTG, does VTG "turn off" one of my bowtie arcs, for the second shot, as far as ATP is concerned?

11 minutes ago, emeraldbeacon said:

Yeah, your TIE/sf example definitely works.

What's a little bit more gray, though, is the double turret arc of the YT-1300 or Starfortress... is it one weapon with two arcs (which I believe), or two separate weapons? Can I choose a ship at R2 on my left if there's a target at R1 on my right? If I have ATP and VTG, does VTG "turn off" one of my bowtie arcs, for the second shot, as far as ATP is concerned?

it's not two weapons, no, it's one weapon with two arcs, since that's how it's described on the card. otherwise, the star fortress would have three primary weapons - and according to the rules reference, ships have a maximum of two primary weapons.



or in other words, your belief is correct. also, you cannot choose a ship at range two on your left if there is a target at a range one in your right arc, if you're using a weapon with a double turret arc.