relating to this thread:

if you have concussion bombs with a inactive charge, are you free to elect to drop another device (such as a proximity mine or what have you) during the systems phase, preventing you from dropping a concussion bomb that round?




this is similar to the question about spending a lock to reroll all of your blank results during dice modification, preventing commander malarus's ability from resolving. the main difference being that the ability queue is not used for dice modification - and spending a lock for its default effect is not considered an ability.


or in other words, how do we interpret and treat the term "must"? i know that some people have previously argued that mandatory effects are always resolved before other abilities, but that argument really doesn't make any sense under the current rule set. in fact, all abilities that do not use the word "may" are mandatory. "must" is just used to reiterate that.

from page two of the RR:


to be honest, it's hard to have an opinion. on one hand, there is no precedence - and RAW i cannot find anything that would prevent you from using a may-ability before a must-ability, even if that prevents the must-ability from resolving. on the other hand, must means "is required to" - and from a design perspective, i feel it would be better for the game if must abilities would take precedence in the ability queue over abilities or effects that would prevent them from resolving.

your thoughts and comments are most welcome.

I'd say must doesn't mean you have to do it first, just that you've got to do it if able. Doing something else that prevents you from doing the "must" seems totally reasonable.

From the Rules Reference, "The word “must” is used to mean “is required to.” Although all effects that are not “may” effects are mandatory, the inclusion of “must” is used to reiterate a mandatory effect that could provide a drawback to the ship with the effect."

So must is just reiterating that something is mandatory without actually making it any "more" mandatory.

There's also this, "Can a TIE Advanced x1 that rolled 1 additional die from Advanced Targeting Computer spend the lock later in the attack? If it does, can it change 1 򁧠into a 򁨿A: While performing an attack, a TIE Advanced x1 can spend its lock to reroll attack dice after rolling 1 additional die. It can also change 1 򁧠result to a 򁨠result and then spend the lock to reroll attack dice. However, note that it cannot change 1 򁧠result to a 򁨠result after spending the lock, as it no longer has the defender locked."

Which implies that a mandatory effect, (Advanced Targeting Computer) does not "have" to occur before any other dice modification, and can be avoided by spending the lock.

I'm with @theBitterFig ... dropping/launching another device would preclude you from needing to Concussion Bomb, unless you have some ability to drop ANOTHER one (i.e. Paige Tico ). In that case, I think you would be required to exercise your optional ability to fulfill a mandatory requirement.

On 9/27/2020 at 4:49 AM, emeraldbeacon said:

I'm with @theBitterFig ... dropping/launching another device would preclude you from needing to Concussion Bomb, unless you have some ability to drop ANOTHER one (i.e. Paige Tico ). In that case, I think you would be required to exercise your optional ability to fulfill a mandatory requirement.

But you "must" drop the concussion bomb. It is mandatory. Dropping another bomb instead is a may. So I would say you have to drop the concussion first, mandatorily. You cannot voluntarily elect to drop another bomb to avoid a mandatory effect.

The "if able" clause is not there to provide a cheesy escape window, but to cover this case:

"A device cannot be placed so that a portion of the device would be outside the play area. If this would happen, play is reversed to before the device was placed—the device is not placed, any charges spent and other costs paid are recovered, and the player can choose to not place that device."

Sounds to me like if you drop another device, you are no longer “able” to drop a Concussion Bomb, unless (as someone already stated), you have Paige Tico or something allowing multiple device drops in a single turn. So yeah, I think that’s a totally valid way to circumvent the “must if able” clause.

On 9/26/2020 at 10:49 PM, emeraldbeacon said:

I'm with @theBitterFig ... dropping/launching another device would preclude you from needing to Concussion Bomb, unless you have some ability to drop ANOTHER one (i.e. Paige Tico ). In that case, I think you would be required to exercise your optional ability to fulfill a mandatory requirement.

As much as i kinda feel this is breaking the spirit of how the bomb is suppose to work, im forced to agree with this as well, given how things are currently written.

On 9/28/2020 at 9:35 AM, Lyianx said:

As much as i kinda feel this is breaking the spirit of how the bomb is suppose to work, im forced to agree with this as well, given how things are currently written.

Kind of, sort of. You still are forced to drop a device even if it isn't the concussion variety so it still is accomplishing the carpet bombing effect.

Ok let me reformulate. Is that not the old case of "Do what the card says. Do not things which the card does not say"?

In this case pretending there is a choice of dropping another bomb beforehand.

Round Start.

Phase 1 Planning Phase.

Phase 2 Systems Phase.

"PHASE 2: SYSTEM PHASE Some ships have special abilities that indicate they are used during the System Phase. All of these abilities are resolved in initiative order, starting with the lowest initiative."

As soon as initiative reaches the ship with less than 3 active charges on its equipped Conc bomb, you check for the condition of having less than 3 charges. Condition fulfilled, you must drop another concussion bomb.

Before you get to choose instead dropping another bomb in order to avoid usage of the concussion bomb.

"If able" clause covers

-having no charge left

-e.g. board edge preventing a legal drop

7 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

Kind of, sort of. You still are forced to drop a device even if it isn't the concussion varietyso it still is accomplishing the carpet bombing effect.

Yeah, but i imagine the bomb release is in the middle of releasing them one at a time, but is actively doing them, so its too 'busy' to change the bomb in the middle of the release cycle to allow that to happen. But, thats just my head cannon of how it works.

19 hours ago, Managarmr said:

But you "must" drop the concussion bomb. It is mandatory. Dropping another bomb instead is a may. So I would say you have to drop the concussion first, mandatorily. You cannot voluntarily elect to drop another bomb to avoid a mandatory effect.

The "if able" clause is not there to provide a cheesy escape window, but to cover this case:

"A device cannot be placed so that a portion of the device would be outside the play area. If this would happen, play is reversed to before the device was placed—the device is not placed, any charges spent and other costs paid are recovered, and the player can choose to not place that device."

The fact that we now know that ALL triggers (mandatory AND optional), enter the queue at the same time, and in the order of the controlling player's choice, pretty much guarantees that you can drop an alternate bomb to avoid the subsequent Concussion. Example:

1. In the system phase, you come to the initiative of a ship with both Concussion Bombs & Seismic Charges.
2. Both Seismic Charge and Concussion Bombs have their "drop" ability triggered. You can choose either one to resolve first, the other would resolve second. In this case, we'll choose to resolve Seismic before Concussion.
3. The first bomb option resolves, and you choose whether or not to drop the Seismic Charge. You decide that you do want to drop it; you now put it in play.
4. The second bomb option resolves, and you choose whether or not to drop the Concussion Bomb... but because you have already placed a device this phase, you (normally) cannot place another device. You don't lose a charge, you don't drop the bomb.

The situation gets murkier with ships like Paige Tico, who can drop another bomb after dropping a bomb, or if you could be required to launch a Concussion with Trajectory Simulator if your drop failed (out of bounds)... but in most cases, the Concussion v. Seismic drop situation seems very well covered by the rules.

On 9/29/2020 at 6:49 AM, Lyianx said:

Yeah, but i imagine the bomb release is in the middle of releasing them one at a time, but is actively doing them, so its too 'busy' to change the bomb in the middle of the release cycle to allow that to happen. But, thats just my head cannon of how it works.

Personally I like to imagine the bombs are all piled up haphazardly in the cargo hold and they just chuck the doors open.

7 hours ago, Ysenhal said:

Personally I like to imagine the bombs are all piled up haphazardly in the cargo hold and they just chuck the doors open.

i always picture either the Firespray in Ep 2, or Tie Bombers in Ep 5 releasing bombs. In this case, the bomber in Ep 5 feels appropriate given they were dropping bombs with more or less even timing windows.

On 9/28/2020 at 10:49 PM, Lyianx said:

On 9/28/2020 at 10:41 PM, 5050Saint said:

Yeah, but i imagine the bomb release is in the middle of releasing them one at a time, but is actively doing them, so its too 'busy' to change the bomb in the middle of the release cycle to allow that to happen. But, thats just my head cannon of how it works.

Yup, and clearly this is RAI.

I'd opt for the 'reverse-queue-causality':

you simply have to drop a concussion. Full stop. (aka 'must')
If you would do something that prevents you from resolving a 'must' effect (eg drop a seismic) - you simply are not allowed to.
[if you do by accident/unknowingly then time is rewound, you get the seismic charge back, proceed to drop a concussion]

simple rule would be 'must before may'.
(but I don’t know which other combos such a rule would break...)

again, trying to cheat on the concussion dropping would feel - well, like cheating to me!

2ct

18 hours ago, Tellonius said:

simple rule would be 'must before may'.
(but I don’t know which other combos such a rule would break...)

Well, "must" doesn't actually mean anything. It's only there to emphasize that the ability is mandatory.

So your simply rule would require all mandatory abilities to resolve before optional abilities.

14 hours ago, Maui. said:

Well, "must" doesn't actually mean anything. It's only there to emphasize that the ability is not mandatory.

Don't you mean, is mandatory?

15 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

Don't you mean, is mandatory?

one of those times where my brain couldn't decide between "is mandatory" and "is not optional" so it settled on an incorrect compromise without my authorization or consent

So, does concussion bomb ‘must’ be used if used? Meaning the round I drop one, each following round the bomb must be dropped?

19 minutes ago, Ccwebb said:

So, does concussion bomb ‘must’ be used if used? Meaning the round I drop one, each following round the bomb must be dropped?

Basically, yes. If...though normal deployment means... you are able to drop one, you must drop one. If, however, the only way you can drop one, is by using an ability that skirts the normal dropping mechanic, then you are not forced to drop one.

8 minutes ago, Ccwebb said:

So, does concussion bomb ‘must’ be used if used? Meaning the round I drop one, each following round the bomb must be dropped?

yes, if you're able to. you could drop another device to disallow yourself from dropping a concussion bomb, or line up with your back close enough to an edge of the play area so that the bomb wouldn't fit.

you are not required to use replacement effects to drop (or launch) a concussion bomb, though, even if you could.

Say... new thought:

Concussion Bomb and Cloak tokens (probably from the Illicit Cloaking Device ).

I'd argue that a ship is able to decloak first, then be unable to drop a concussion bomb. I don't think you'd have to drop a bomb before decloaking.

Also...

On 9/26/2020 at 10:49 PM, emeraldbeacon said:

ANOTHER one