Good job everyone. /s

Hux Hugs has a non-action coordinate, so he can pick enemy ships (only in a First Order Mirror Match, but still), and due to "must" they can't opt out of performing the action, and will wind up stressed and taking an action they might not have wanted to take. Well, at least if Hux Hugs is first player.

This is stupid, and it shouldn't work. But I can't see a reason why it doesn't, because a bunch of folks onhere whined about Hondo.

And FFG didn't even fully fix Hondo, since while there's an exemption to coordinate to allow you to coordinate enemy ships now, there is no similar exemption to allow you to jam friendly ships. So he still doesn't work, and is probably more broken than before . With an exemption in one side but not the other, he's no longer symmetrical, and that's utter bullshirt. Nice work.

All folks had to do was view Hondo as invoking the Golden Rule , that his selection effects overrode the standard selection rules. Done, simple. But that'd require folks take ownership of their interpretations.

I maintain that Hondo was not actually broken before. The fix doesn't actually fix it. And it broke something else.

to be honest, this was kind of expected. good find, though.

Actually, I don't think the *Hondo rule* affects Hux at all. You are performing your own coordinate action. Hux just allows you to change your normal white coordinate action to red to target up to three ships of one type instead of the normal one friendly ship target. You are still performing an action though.

1 minute ago, Rn_ReFlux said:

Actually, I don't think the *Hondo rule* affects Hux at all. You are performing your own coordinate action. Hux just allows you to change your normal white coordinate action to red to target up to three ships of one type instead of the normal one friendly ship target. You are still performing an action though.

the two additional ships you're coordinating are not coordinated as a coordinate action.

Hux gets around this by what your worried about being a may clause that can affect up to 2. He doesn't have to pick 2. He can pick 0, 1 or 2 additional ships. Hondo is a hard requirement to pick 2 ships friendly to each other. Hux isn't broken, but the adjustment to Coordinate wasn't needed either.

50 minutes ago, meffo said:

the two additional ships you're coordinating are not coordinated as a coordinate action.

Why do you say they are not being coordinated as a coordinate action? Hux specifies *while you perform a white coordinate action, you may treat it as red.... * but you are still performing a coordinate action, whereas Hondo is performing a special action that allows you to coordinate.

Hux is only modifying the difficulty and number of targets of your ship's coordinate action.

34 minutes ago, Rn_ReFlux said:

Why do you say they are not being coordinated as a coordinate action? Hux specifies *while you perform a white coordinate action, you may treat it as red.... * but you are still performing a coordinate action, whereas Hondo is performing a special action that allows you to coordinate.

Hux is only modifying the difficulty and number of targets of your ship's coordinate action.

ok. let us read the rules again.

see how hux's card specifically instructs you to coordinate while coordinating? and see how the rules specifically tells you that if you're instructed to coordinate, it's not the same as performing a coordinate action?


i can see you point of view here, but lets pretend i don't care about the RAI, but would love to exploit every opportunity the game gives me to get an unfair advantage. never mind all the problems that could arise from nesting actions in actions, several ships performing actions at the same time and so on...

2 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Hux gets around this by what your worried about being a may clause that can affect up to 2. He doesn't have to pick 2. He can pick 0, 1 or 2 additional ships. Hondo is a hard requirement to pick 2 ships friendly to each other. Hux isn't broken, but the adjustment to Coordinate wasn't needed either.

Exactly. Hux is fine because he doesn't have to pick 2 additional ships, so just pick the number of your ships that you want to coordinate.

No issues here. Move along.

@Hiemfire and @SwampyCr - you guys are missing the fact that all the ships have to perform the same action, treating it as red. so if you coordinate a friendly ship and that ship performs a boost or a barrel roll, then use Hux's ability to choose two additional ships and choose enemy ships, they must perform the same action (a boost or barrel roll), treating it as red.

Misread.

4 minutes ago, meffo said:

@Hiemfire and @SwampyCr - you guys are missing the fact that all the ships have to perform the same action, treating it as red. so if you coordinate a friendly ship and that ship performs a boost or a barrel roll, then use Hux's ability to choose two additional ships and choose enemy ships, they must perform the same action (a boost or barrel roll), treating it as red.

You're correct, I misread their issue with the rule adjustment. That is a nasty way to weaponize this. Oddly thematic in effect though. The traitor messing with others in faction. Hopefully this gets fixed.

3 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Hux gets around this by what your worried about being a may clause that can affect up to 2. He doesn't have to pick 2. He can pick 0, 1 or 2 additional ships. Hondo is a hard requirement to pick 2 ships friendly to each other. Hux isn't broken, but the adjustment to Coordinate wasn't needed either.

The fact that you *could* use Hux on enemy ships is brokenness, IMHO, even if you're not forced to. Being able to, then forcing an opponent into a red action, is something which shouldn't happen.

Hux is also not special, Hux is just an example. Even if we can find a way around Hux, this is still a mechanic much more prone to being broken than before the un-needed fix . I'm not pissed off about Hux. I'm pissed off that the community begged for a fix that has unintended consequences, when we didn't need a fix in the first place. I'm mad at the X-Wing Rules Community.

//

I'll also mostly agree with @Rn_ReFlux that there's potential for a fix if we view Hux as altering the number of ships within a coordinate action. There's enough there, and it fits within my general interpretive framework that if there's a valid interpretation we can go with that's more just and fair, I'm fine going with that.

I'm still annoyed at the change in the rules to something *worse* because folks onhere weren't willing to use a valid interpretation that was just and fair (that Hondo worked under the Golden Rule), and demanded FFG address things specifically.

4 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

The fact that you *could* use Hux on enemy ships is brokenness, IMHO, even if you're not forced to. Being able to, then forcing an opponent into a red action, is something which shouldn't happen.

Hux is also not special, Hux is just an example. Even if we can find a way around Hux, this is still a mechanic much more prone to being broken than before the un-needed fix . I'm not pissed off about Hux. I'm pissed off that the community begged for a fix that has unintended consequences, when we didn't need a fix in the first place. I'm mad at the X-Wing Rules Community.

Yah, Thanks to @meffo I see how I misread what you were talking about. I fully agree that a simple FAQ entry saying that Hondo qualified for the Golden Rule would have been better while not creating this "interesting" yet ironically thematic interaction.

To put it another way, we can choose to get around Hux. Great.

We could have chosen to get around Hondo--didn't--and that's made things a bit stickier.

I still disagree with Hux being at all able to coordinate enemy ships. The card is pretty explicit. It says you may instead of performing a white coordinate action, you may perform a red coordinate action with up to three targets. It's not telling you to coordinate as another part of the action, it is specifying you may multicoordinate.

The absolute difference is between the wording of *a ship that coordinates without performing the action* and *while you perform a white coordinate action* you may do this.

8 minutes ago, Rn_ReFlux said:

I still disagree with Hux being at all able to coordinate enemy ships. The card is pretty explicit. It says you may instead of performing a white coordinate action, you may perform a red coordinate action with up to three targets. It's not telling you to coordinate as another part of the action, it is specifying you may multicoordinate.

Hopefully your interpretation is correct.

I honestly love the thematic idea of Hux being so incensed that someone dare use his own fleet against him, that he'd start barking orders at enemy ships, and even more so, that those ships would obey those orders, even to their own detriment...

2 hours ago, Rn_ReFlux said:

I still disagree with Hux being at all able to coordinate enemy ships. The card is pretty explicit. It says you may instead of performing a white coordinate action, you may perform a red coordinate action with up to three targets. It's not telling you to coordinate as another part of the action, it is specifying you may multicoordinate.

The absolute difference is between the wording of *a ship that coordinates without performing the action* and *while you perform a white coordinate action* you may do this.

that's not what the card says, no. that's what you interpret it to say. i don't mind agreeing with you, but i'm also happy to pretend i want to exploit the interaction.

"While you perform a white (cooridnate) action, you may treat it as red. If you do, you may coordinate up to 2 additional ships of the same ship type, and each ship you coordinate must perform the same action, treating that action as red."

while you perform a coordinate action, if you choose to treat it as red, you may coordinate up to two additional ships of the same type... the card clearly uses the words "you may coordinate", which according to the rules text on coordinate qualifies the effect as being a coordinate without being an action, since the rules text states:

"• If an ability instructs a ship to coordinate, this is different than performing a (coordinate) action."

i will agree with your interpretation, that the instruction to coordinate two additional ships indicates that those ships are being coordinated through the same coordinate action, but i will still present the other side of the argument. also my track record for interpretation of the word additional in rules text is lacking.

13 hours ago, emeraldbeacon said:

I honestly love the thematic idea of Hux being so incensed that someone dare use his own fleet against him, that he'd start barking orders at enemy ships, and even more so, that those ships would obey those orders, even to their own detriment...

14 hours ago, Rn_ReFlux said:

The absolute difference is between the wording of *a ship that coordinates without performing the action* and *while you perform a white coordinate action* you may do this.

This is certainly an off-ramp if we choose to use it.

14 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Hopefully your interpretation is correct.

I don't think an interpretation being correct is necessarily the right frame. Again, we've seen a lot of cases where there are a few valid interpretations. Some might be a bit more convincing than others, but often there are multiple good-faith, well considered ways to to read these texts.

My big point: it's up to us.

To be fair to FFG, I think Hux was broken emotionally and physically long before the Hondo change. Being ridiculed by Poe Dameron and Kylo Ren and then getting shot in the chest would break pretty much anybody.

BRB editing Hux to Hugs.

On 9/25/2020 at 8:17 AM, theBitterFig said:

But that'd require folks take ownership of their interpretations.

Um... have you forgotten what forum you are posting in?

I personally would have preferred if he Wasn't able to coordinate enemy ships, and instead the exception was to allow for Jamming friendly ships. That, to me, would have made Far more of intentional sense and would have been my "interpretation", which clearly didn't match yous. Hence, it wasnt clear, hence the need for clarification.

X-Wing is all about 'exploiting rules-text'??? ☹️

Luckily I do not know anyone who would actually try this on the table!!

This discussions here are *mostly* fun.


Luckily point 2: no one actually play Hicks/Hugs/Hux. Problem solved.