1 minute ago, Khobai said:

I do assume average dice rolls.

Its Vaders 6 red vs Sabines 6 black + 1 red from tenacity and her offensive surge to crit.

Shes really not doing that much less damage than him because of her offensive surge to crit.

You dont know what youre talking about.

Can you give a break down of statistics with both of them surging to defense? Be sure to factor in the additional dodges force reflexes, Fear and Dead men, or the suppression Sabine has from Master of evil giving her only 1 action, or the fact that Vader gets to attack 2 times in a round with implacable (also give him 2 dodges because force power refresh after the activation). There is a multitude of things you can do to make sure Vader beats her, because statistics are in your favor. You are welcome to refuse to accept the fact that you area being a denier of real solutions, but it is likely we will see much more complaining from you and you will continue to not have fun playing this game if you chose to do so.

12 minutes ago, Khobai said:

I do assume average dice rolls.

Its Vaders 6 red vs Sabines 6 black + 1 red from tenacity and her offensive surge to crit.

Shes really not doing that much less damage than him because of her offensive surge to crit.

You dont know what youre talking about.

Sabine can absolutely kill Vader 1v1 if he has a couple wounds on him. Although if hes not wounded ahead of time her odds of killing him go considerably down.

Sabine does 1.2 hits on Vader on average (assuming she gets 1 dodge token)

Vader does 1.4 hits to Sabine on average (assuming he gets 1 dodge token)

While I’m not getting in the fight of wether Sabine is a hard counter to commander Vader, your math is wrong.

Sabines dark saber is 5 black not 6. So the math need to be based on for Sabine to have 5 dice with 5 possible hits each and 1 die with 7 possible hits (assuming Vader is already wounded)

vs Vaders 6 dice with 6 possible hits.

19 minutes ago, Khobai said:

Sabine doesnt shoot him the rest of her army does.

Just like the rest of Vaders army is going to be shooting Sabine.

Sabine is a little better situated to survive being shot at by an entire army though because of nimble.

Then that's not a 1v1 and she has less health than both OP Vader and Comm Vader, so if there's a semi-equal amount of fire she will have fewer wounds going into Melee (and with Vader having Relentless, if he initiates the combat he can easily close distance and take the free attack for a solid opening volley.)

9 minutes ago, Khobai said:

Its Vaders 6 red vs Sabines 6 black + 1 red from tenacity and her offensive surge to crit.

You dont know what youre talking about.

Ironic to say that considering she's only got 5 black dice plus the one red IF you take Tenacity, which is still a lower overall average than an equal number of all red dice.

Again, Sabine is good, but she is not (in my experience playing against her) a nuclear option to deploy against Vader (OP or Comm). She might could take Obi-Wan in a head-on fight, but even then she would likely be low on health after the fight and easily picked off by nearby clones. I have never seen her do much more than take out a single unit (usually something key, so she does cause me some real trouble) and then gum another unit before being taken out. I've seen her used very well to gum a front line or a major unit long enough for other troopers to flank or take objectives.

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Ironic to say that considering she's only got 5 black dice plus the one red IF you take Tenacity, which is still a lower overall average than an equal number of all red dice.

you should always take tenacity with her if you take the darksaber IMO.

and its not ironic. its statistical probability.

its not just 5 black and 1 red. its 5 black and 1 red with SURGE TO CRIT. vader doesnt even surge to hit let alone surge to crit (unless its OP vader against another jedi).

her average damage is not that much lower than his thanks to her native offensive surge to crit.

conveniently you left that out though.

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gain, Sabine is good, but she is not (in my experience playing against her) a nuclear option to deploy against Vader (OP or Comm).

Sabine Wren trashes operative Vader. Utterly and completely. She absolutely is a nuclear option against OP Vader. Operative Vader has some serious fragility issues. Sabine Wren not only outdamages Operative Vader but is also much harder to kill than operative Vader; which is wrong on so many levels but it is what it is.

Shes less likely to be able to trash Commander Vader because of his 8 wounds. He has to have at least 3-4 wounds on him for her to have a chance. But just tying him up for the entire game is often good enough.

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Then that's not a 1v1 and she has less health than both OP Vader and Comm Vader, so if there's a semi-equal amount of fire she will have fewer wounds going into Melee (and with Vader having Relentless, if he initiates the combat he can easily close distance and take the free attack for a solid opening volley.)

Not necessarily. Because she has nimble and can recover her shield.

Sabine is better at withstanding attacks from multiple attack pools than Vader is. She gets a massive 2/3rd save against everything too.

Shes probably the hardest thing to kill in the game that isnt a heavy vehicle.

11 minutes ago, Khobai said:

you should always take tenacity with her if you take the darksaber IMO.

and its not ironic. its statistical probability.

she has critical surge to hit. vader does not even surge to hit let alone surge to crit.

her average damage is not that much lower than his thanks to her native offensive surge to crit.

conveniently you left that out though.

Sabine Wren trashes operative Vader. Utterly and completely. She absolutely is a nuclear option against OP Vader. Operative Vader has some serious fragility issues. Sabine Wren not only outdamages Operative Vader but is also much harder to kill than operative Vader; which is wrong on so many levels but it is what it is.

Shes less likely to be able to kill Commander Vader because of his 8 wounds. He has to have at least 3-4 wounds on him for her to have a chance. But just tying him up for the entire game is often good enough.

Your statistics on you previous post says she does not trash him. They show that he is actually better. That doesnt even take into account that Vader should have 2 dodges each time she attacks (one from dodge, other from force reflexes since he should go before her almost every round due to the ability to have multiple low pip cards specific to Vader). Can she limit his effectiveness for a long time? sure she can, and she should. He does beat her most of the time when played correctly, but if she is close to 160 points and he is 170+ then they should be relatively close, but he definitely has the advantages. He is not trashed by her. You arent convincing of the people here and we clearly arent convincing you with our ample suggestions, facts, and statistics (some of which you conveniently provided that prove he is better), so this conversation is over.

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Your statistics on you previous post says she does not trash him. They show that he is actually better.

that is for commander vader not operative vader

operative vader does an entire red die less damage

sabine wren outdamages operative vader

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but if she is close to 160 points and he is 170+ then they should be relatively close

when is operative vader only 170 points? are you not taking upgrades on him? Hes more like 190+ if you take endurance, reflexes, and choke.

they are not fairly close. sabine wren is way better. shes much cheaper, does more damage, is more survivable, and more versatile in general.

operative vader is quite frankly not a good unit at all. he is very overcosted, way too fragile for vader (6 wounds? really?), and has some serious suppression issues. Operative vader is in serious need of some buffs even moreso than commander vader.

commander vader is generally the better of the two since his attack is better, hes not as fragile, and cant be suppressed down to one action.

neither is particularly great against sabine though. sabine shuts them both down for the entire game.

2 hours ago, Khobai said:

You immobilize him then shoot some wounds onto him. Then you engage him in melee.

Keep in mind that he Electrograppling Line takes an action to use (it is not a free action like Boba's) and also taps. It's really not a good card, even if it is good against Vader. I'd never take it otherwise.

I dont see how you can say electrograppling line is bad. its only 5 points. sabine giving up an action to add 2 suppression and immobilize a unit is hardly the worst way for her to spend an action. if it didnt give suppression I might agree with you but 2 guaranteed suppression applied at the right time can be devastating. and she has a command card that can recover it for free and let her use it again.

Vader is 215 points. a game is 6 turns. so making vader lose a turn is worth 35 points. thats potentially a 30 point gain every time you immobilize him. at the very least its a 15 point gain if hes reduced to a saber throw.

its even better against operative vader because it adds suppression as well. if he spurred at all you probably just suppressed him big time.

and its potentially better than boba fetts because you can use it more than once. one game I immobilized vader every single turn. thats devastating in a skirmish game. the benefit to it being a gear instead of a command card is that it also gives her an extra command card that isnt a whipcord launcher.

the real advantage boba fett's version has over sabines is that it gives him a free disengage.

16 minutes ago, Khobai said:

I dont see how you can say electrograppling line is bad. its only 5 points. sabine giving up an action to add 2 suppression and immobilize a unit is hardly the worst way for her to spend an action. if it didnt give suppression I might agree with you but 2 suppression applied at the right time can be devastating.

Vader is 215 points. a game is 6 turns. so making vader lose a turn is worth 35 points. thats essentially a 30 point gain every time you immobilize him.

its even better against operative vader because it adds suppression as well. if he spurred at all you probably just suppressed him big time.

and its potentially better than boba fetts because you can use it more than once. one game I immobilized vader every single turn. thats devastating in a skirmish game.

the real advantage boba fett's has over sabines is that it gives him a free disengage.

Sabine is action starved. She needs tokens and has no move and attack abilities. Maybe you shouldn't mention your "immobilize Vader every turn" game, since you were using the upgrade incorrectly. Everything you've said about it seems to indicate that you don't/didn't realize that it taps AND costs an action to use. In order to use it every turn you'd have to spend your entire activation Recovering and then using the Line.

sabine isnt action starved she gets the same 2 actions that everyone else gets. she doesnt need tokens either. 5 wounds with a 2/3 save and shield 1 makes her one of the most survivable units in the game even without a dodge token. the dodge token is nice to have but hardly required for her to stay alive.

and how am I using the upgrade incorrectly?

sabine can take a recover action as her first action then use her electrograppling line as her second action. she can keep vader locked down indefinitely. she also keeps getting her shield back. and if leia is putting a dodge token on her she gets a dodge and nimble too.

electrograppling line is definitely not bad for 5 points. its very inexpensive for guaranteed on demand suppression. the immobilization is a huge bonus.

6 minutes ago, Khobai said:

sabine isnt action starved she gets the same 2 actions that everyone else gets. she doesnt need tokens either. 5 wounds with a 2/3 save and shield 1 makes her one of the most survivable units in the game even without a dodge token. the dodge token is nice to have but hardly required for her to stay alive.

and how am I using the upgrade incorrectly?

sabine can take a recover action as her first action then use her electrograppling line as her second action. she can keep vader locked down indefinitely. she also keeps getting her shield back. and if leia is putting tokens on her she gets nimble too.

electrograppling line is definitely not bad for 5 points. its very inexpensive for guaranteed on demand suppression. the immobilization is a huge bonus.

Your first sentence establishes that you still aren't actually reading what other people write before you respond argumentatively, so I refuse to engage this time. It's a waste of my time and energy.

sry I mess up with double posting

9 minutes ago, Khobai said:

sabine isnt action starved she gets the same 2 actions that everyone else gets.

and how am I using the upgrade incorrectly?

sabine can take a recover action then use her electrograppling line as her second action. she can keep vader locked down indefinitely.

Just now, Thaureg said:

vs saber throw and opportunity to little shooting practice against unable doing anything else Sabine?

35 minutes ago, arnoldrew said:

Your first sentence establishes that you still aren't actually reading what other people write before you respond argumentatively, so I refuse to engage this time. It's a waste of my time and energy.

You said I was using the upgrade wrong.

I was not using it wrong. I used a recover action then used an action for the upgrade. That is a completely legitimate use of the upgrade to lockdown a piece like Vader.

Youre the one that assumes other people are doing things wrong and when they correct you, you throw a hissy fit.

heres how you do it because you seem really confounded or something:

Turn 2) sabine uses legacy of mandalore or covering fire command card to give herself a dodge token, sabine moves (preferably into heavy cover) and electrograppling lines vader

Turn 3) sabine uses her legacy of mandalore or covering fire command card to give herself a dodge token. sabine takes a recover action to get back her shield and electrograppling lines vader again

Turn 4) sabine uses her graffiti command card to get a free recover, gets her shield back again, electrograppling lines vader again, then she can take a dodge action or move away.

preferably you wanna do a last move, first move somewhere in there to minimize the damage sabine takes.

you can also use leia to give her dodge tokens as well . that is especially an option on turn 2.

shes really not action starved with at least two command cards that give her free dodge tokens and one which gives her a free recover.

the whole reason sabine is so good is because theres like 4 different ways of using her and NONE of them are wrong. She can be control/containment. She can be a roadblock/tarpit. She can be a ranged skirmisher. And she can be an army support piece with clan wren. Shes probably the best operative in the entire game and certainly the most versatile.

33 minutes ago, Thaureg said:

vs saber throw and opportunity to little shooting practice against unable doing anything else Sabine?

if sabines in heavy cover saber throw wont really do anything to her.

i played a skirmish game where sabine was in heavy cover and immobilized vader with her electrograppling line. And she kept doing that every single turn while Vader tried to aim and saberthrow at her. Sabine kept recovering her shield with the recover action so vader couldnt do any damage to her.

best 5 points I ever spent lol

Yhy with all easy access to panic her in one round? I hope youre scenario is not a lonely Vader slowly coming (till range `1) to her across empty battlefield where she sit in some fox hole? Ohh look Sniper strike team with pierce 1 and sharpshooter 1 cost only 48 pts? Mortar 36? E-web with HQ uplink and BG 72 points? - thoose are chepest way to hurt/panic her and for real in most cases Sabine want get to range one to Vader ASAP to use recover/lock in that way like you want use it. Believe me 2 rounds top and she```s gone, one if Vader get lucky and finish her with saber throw with pierce 3.

if the imperial player has a lot of guns in range of her you can just walk her into melee with vader and she cant be shot unless vader wastes his whole turn disengaging.

she can melee tarpit him too. she doesnt have to use electrograppling line.

thats whats great about sabine she shuts down vader in multiple ways. the way you shut him down varies depending on the situation.

and I dont know why you think saber throw would even hurt her. she has impervious with a 2/3rd save. probably has a shield and a dodge token. if shes in cover you wont even hurt her with saber throw unless you get some crazy 1 in 500 roll with triple crits. shes not worried about saber throw.

suppressions not a big deal for her either with symbol of the rebellion. she can reset her suppression to zero whenever she needs to.

also were talking about a skirmish sized game not a standard sized game. the way you play sabine in a standard game is completely different from a skirmish game. you can afford to be more aggressive with sabine in skirmish compared to standard.

25 minutes ago, Khobai said:

well then you just walk into melee with vader and she cant be shot.

she can melee tarpit him too. she doesnt have to use electrograppling line.

thats whats great about sabine she shuts down vader in multiple ways.

and I dont know why you think saber throw would even hurt her. she has impervious with a 2/3rd save. probably has a shield and a dodge token. if shes in cover you wont even hurt her with saber throw unless you get some crazy 1 in 500 roll with triple crits. shes not worried about saber throw.

suppressions not a big deal for her either with symbol of the rebellion. she can reset her suppression to zero whenever she needs to.

Ahh sorry forgot about impervious. Then I stay on 4+ supression token = panic token on her and wish you luck with white defence dice every turn. Ok to be honest first you want chop Vader using Sabine Darksaber - cant happend in 1vs1 because Vader must be wounded, then you want use Sabine Elecro Grapling Line for every turn on Vader to stop him in one spot, cant happend because you must run forward ASAP and take anything else, now something new. If Im correct you just always find new counter and never leaves this mad vicious circle? Ok, frankly Im too dumb, your grass is always greener because I dont have a lawn. Im just to old for this sith. Good luck have fun.

that tactic would definitely work in a standard game. you cant play sabine nearly as aggressively in standard games because of all the ranged firepower.

but we were talking about skirmish tactics against vader. sabine is insane in skirmish level games. its much harder to shoot her off the table in skirmish because you have half the units.

in standard games sabine has to be played with a lot more finesse because she absolutely can be killed in one or two turns.

The Sabine vs. Vader 1 on 1 discussion is fairly academic, because in practice Vader normally force pushes her into the open after whacking her, the rest of your army shoots her, and then Vader goes on with his life.

Sabine is very good at a lot of things, but taking Vader head on isn't one of them. If you want to take a character to manage Vader, Luke is much better at it, and not that much more expensive than Sabine with a Darksaber. Dice and hit points don't win saber duels, force push does.

@Khobai

You can quote all the statistics you want and try to facts and logic your argument, and none of it will matter much because I am basing my entire opinion on what I have personally witnessed on the table. I can only bring my own experience as my base, and I have never seen her take out Vader outside of simply being the killing blow (opponent sent her in in turn 4 after he had been taken down to 2 wounds to finish the job, which is a fair cop, though she got gunlined right after since she wasn't protected by melee).

Perhaps you have seen her used differently on the table, or maybe you've just not personally played Vader, but in my own experience a well played Vader beats out most other single units (key there being SINGLE units and WELL PLAYED Vader. I have absolutely had my precious Vader shot down early because I pushed too hard with him without back-up or he couldn't get into melee to protect himself from ranged attacks so I do not play him well every game).

@Khobai the problem with your idea of Sabine being able to lock down Vader with immobilize is you're completely ignoring that Vader isn't stupid and has command cards too. He can act before Sabine has the chance to lock him down for the turn. Also, if Sabine is exposing herself to where she can see Vader for several turns then the rest of the empire army is going to lay down a whole lot of pain on her there's no way she'd survive three rounds. Get the units on the table, and try it against a competent player that miracle of a play would never be reliable ever. Not saying it's impossible cause yes you COULD do it but against someone who is any good at the game, it'd be very very rare that you could do that

You guys can keep trying to convince him, @ arnoldrew tried to warn me. Vader has multiple command cards that will prevent endless grapples (Master of Evil, Vader's Might) or, if she is in range 1 already, then simply force push her further than range 1 from you. She will not be able to move back into range, refresh grapple AND use it.

Khobai is either a troll, or he just refuses to find simple solutions to his problems.

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You guys can keep trying to convince him, @ arnoldrew tried to warn me. Vader has multiple command cards that will prevent endless grapples (Master of Evil, Vader's Might) or, if she is in range 1 already, then simply force push her further than range 1 from you. She will not be able to move back into range, refresh grapple AND use it.

she certainly can. she plays her graffiti card that gives her a free recovery, moves back into range, and grapples again.

vader is not the only one with command cards. sabine has command cards too.

a lot of it comes down to the order the command cards get played in. Anticipating what command cards your opponent will play and responding to that with your own command cards and keeping track of what command cards your opponent has and hasnt already played is a crucial part of the overall strategy of the game.

yes your tactics and strategies might change depending on what command cards get played or are still available to the opponent. who wouldve thought? but sabine being so versatile can adapt her playstyle accordingly. I never said sabine should electrograpple vader every turn in every single game. its just one of many possible tactics in her repertoire for locking down vader. You can change her tactics up whenever you need to.

Electrograppling line is certainly not a bad tool for sabine to have against Vader. Its only 5 points. And if the right circumstances come up in the game it can absolutely cripple Vader. Those circumstances may not always come up in every game. But if you dont buy a ticket, you cant win the lottery. So taking the electrograppling line is always worth the 5 points IMO. Ands it not just potentially useful against Vader theres also times when immobilizing or adding 2 guaranteed suppression to other units can be pivotal to the game. Its definitely not a bad card nor is it always the worst use of one of her actions, its just situational, but for 5 points it can afford to be.

3 hours ago, bllaw said:

@Khobai the problem with your idea of Sabine being able to lock down Vader with immobilize is you're completely ignoring that Vader isn't stupid and has command cards too. He can act before Sabine has the chance to lock him down for the turn. Also, if Sabine is exposing herself to where she can see Vader for several turns then the rest of the empire army is going to lay down a whole lot of pain on her there's no way she'd survive three rounds. Get the units on the table, and try it against a competent player that miracle of a play would never be reliable ever. Not saying it's impossible cause yes you COULD do it but against someone who is any good at the game, it'd be very very rare that you could do that

again, that is just one of many possible tactics you can use with sabine. you shouldnt always use that tactic.

obviously not every tactic is applicable to every situation or that would make for a boring game. knowing when to employ which tactic is part of the game.

and again its more of tactic for skirmish not standard. sabine can get away with a lot more in skirmish than she can in standard. ive already said that.

but I will guarantee you that if you take sabine in your list, vader will always have a tougher time than if you dont take sabine. there is always something sabine can do to immobilize, distract, or tarpit vader.